S2 EP002 | Joyride With Expatriates – Moving To The Great White North: From Brazil To Canada

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INTRODUCTION

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[00:00:05] Taty Fittipaldi: Hello and welcome to the Leadership Nest podcast. This is season two of the global leadership podcast, that combines stories, knowledge and science to soar the leadership in you. I’m your host Taty Fittipaldi. During this season, we invited 20 different expatriates from around the world to share their stories, their learning journeys, and they’re tips to make you a better leader and an inspired person. You can also watch the live interviews on our YouTube channel search for coaching expatriates channel, then select the playlist called joyride with expatriates.

[00:00:43] Taty Fittipaldi: On today’s episode, we will talk with Andre Mindlin. He’s a high executive in the healthcare technology industry, who is living in Canada and [00:01:00] originally comes from Brazil. Here is his story.

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[00:01:05] JOYRIDE WITH AN EXPATRIATE

(This section’s transcript was AI-generated and may contain errors)

[00:01:05] Taty Fittipaldi: hi, Andre. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining our interview today.

[00:01:11] Andre Mindlin: Hi, Tati. Nice to see you again after so many years. Thank you. And thanks for the invite.

[00:01:17] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, yes, sure. It’s actually my pleasure. So how about we start warming up by you telling me where you come from for the audience to know and what you used to do before you moved to a different country.

[00:01:34] Andre Mindlin: Okay, so I’m originally from Sao Paulo, Brazil. Uh, before, right before I left Brazil, currently I live just outside Toronto here in Canada. And, um, right before I left Brazil, I was working for General Electric for G Life Sciences. And, um, that’s, uh, that was my last job. I have been in the healthcare life sciences industry for since 2002, 2003, and before that with telecom [00:02:00] and IT.

[00:02:00] Andre Mindlin: So always in sales, marketing, business management.

[00:02:04] Taty Fittipaldi: So you are a very. Successful commercial person. I I remember you for uh, we worked together. So you were very successful So I was I uh was wondering what drove you to to decide to move to a different country

[00:02:20] Andre Mindlin: Okay, it’s like it can be a very long story, but i’ll try to keep it short But, um, so back in 2002, I came to Toronto for the first time and, uh, for part of my MBA that I was doing and part of the classes were here at the University of Toronto.

[00:02:36] Andre Mindlin: And since then, I always wanted to move to Canada since then. So that was a long story, long, long story growing in me that wanted to, to move and move outside of Brazil for multiple reasons. Then in 2009, I managed to get a permanent residency for Canada, but then the need was, I needed to make a proper transfer, not simply let, let go everything and Be, um, an easy rider [00:03:00] that would not work for me.

[00:03:01] Andre Mindlin: So, so then, um, in 2016, uh, with GE, it came up an opportunity to transfer. But what drove me, it’s that I just felt that I was felt, I always felt better here. In the sense of how people interact with each other and, uh, the security, not security, not only on the physical security, but the general sense of, um, being respected by government and, and the general groups, like, uh, we don’t have surprises every day like we used to have, unfortunately, in Brazil, like, um, Uh, to one point where I think I heard that even the history in Brazil can change.

[00:03:41] Andre Mindlin: So, so I think that always bugged me a little bit and I was like, okay, maybe I need to try something else somewhere else. Maybe I will, I will make it right. Maybe I won’t. But that was always a bet. So, since 2002, I wanted to come and, uh, that, that passion and that interest, I only grew since then. It

[00:03:59] Taty Fittipaldi: [00:04:00] sounds like you, you identified yourself with the values of the place of the people in Canada.

[00:04:06] Taty Fittipaldi: So you were, you, you were drawn by, by, you know, by the people, by the place. It’s, it’s, it’s quite interesting to see, uh, this kind of

[00:04:15] Andre Mindlin: I was drawn by everything but the weather. Everything here was really pleasant. The weather, definitely not. But then again, as they say here, if you’re well dressed, I mean, the weather is definitely not a problem.

[00:04:26] Andre Mindlin: So, I think, yeah, the culture, the people, the diversity that we have in the country, and the way the country behaves towards its citizens. And, uh, immigrants, newcomers, as well as other countries. So, that has always been something I, I cherish.

[00:04:41] Taty Fittipaldi: Well, I’m sure, uh, Canada is very lucky to have you, because you are not only a great person, but you’re also a great professional.

[00:04:49] Andre Mindlin: You’re gonna make me blush now. So, my

[00:04:52] Taty Fittipaldi: next question to you is. Tell us a little bit of what you were doing now and how it came about like [00:05:00] You mentioned you were working for GE before and then uh, you know you moved so how things change for you up to this

[00:05:07] Andre Mindlin: moment? Okay, so I worked for GE for about eight years Uh, most of those years where I was in Brazil, leading Brazil and Latin America, uh, regions for the life sciences business.

[00:05:19] Andre Mindlin: When I, when I moved to Canada with G, uh, I was also working for the life sciences business mostly focused on the North American, uh, market, mainly meaning Canada and the U. S. Um, it was a very interesting experience, uh, in both, uh, the pain and the love I, I, I came to learn. Um, so it was the same company, but it was not the same company.

[00:05:43] Andre Mindlin: Uh, it was different in so many ways, even though the culture, the values were the same. It just, I just learned after six years with GE that GE in another country was a whole different, uh, environment. And it turned out that after a while it didn’t really work out for the way I would expect and probably [00:06:00] to a certain extent even to the way the company expected.

[00:06:02] Andre Mindlin: So we decided at some point to go separate ways and um, I was looking for the market in a different country. It was a little Difficult at first because I moved to Canada, my, my wife, uh, she resigned her job to transfer here. So suddenly I was, we decided it would make no sense because she told me that, okay, listen, it’s not going to work.

[00:06:23] Andre Mindlin: So we’re going to give you some time to figure it out. And, uh, it didn’t work. So suddenly it was the two of us unemployed in a different country where none of us had networking or extensive networking. To sustain, uh, us getting new foundations in here. So, um, started chasing the industry, talking to people, connecting, having coffees over and over in Starbucks and Tim Hortons every other day with people.

[00:06:51] Andre Mindlin: Uh, and, um, to your question, what I’m doing for a living right now, for the past two, slightly over two years, I’ve worked for Olympus. Uh, it’s a Japanese company, very well [00:07:00] known in the medical devices, uh, industry, but also for microscopes. Um, which is another segment, but the company also works with other things like remote visual inspections for airplanes, engines, turbines.

[00:07:12] Andre Mindlin: It also, the company also works with non destructive testing for pipelines and oil and gas industries. So what I do right now, I lead the business unit for Canada for the remote visual inspection and destructive testing and microscope businesses. Um, so I’m in charge of this business unit for Canada. How this came about, um, that was interesting because after searching in the market here for a few months and, uh, getting, uh, the door closed quite a few times.

[00:07:42] Andre Mindlin: Um, I was, frustration was really growing and I started chasing outside going, even considering going, moving back to Brazil after all, I still have family, friends, and, uh, my whole mental, almost my entire history there. So it wouldn’t be a problem moving back other than, you know, sort of giving up the dream.

[00:07:59] Andre Mindlin: So in that I [00:08:00] connected with colleagues, uh, back in Brazil, they came up with an opportunity for a position in Brazil with Olympus. I interviewed with that one. It didn’t work out. But ultimately HR came back and said, hey, the company liked you, but not for Brazil. Are you still interested to stay in Canada?

[00:08:18] Andre Mindlin: I said, well, you know, ultimately it makes my life much easier to not have to transfer everybody back to Brazil again and have all the frustration of moving and then soon after moving again. So then, then I took up this job and it was about two years, two months ago.

[00:08:34] Taty Fittipaldi: Wow, that’s, that’s very impressive.

[00:08:36] Taty Fittipaldi: Like, not only your resilience and, uh, your strength to enduring a difficult time, as you said, it’s, it’s not easy. You just moved in a new country, you’re overwhelmed, there’s a bunch of things that you’re learning, and still you were able to keep your feet on the ground and, search for a new job.

[00:08:56] Taty Fittipaldi: And, one of the things, one of the takeaways that I take from your [00:09:00] story is that sometimes we never know what our actions will lead us. So you were interviewing for, a job , in Brazil that you eventually were considering go back to Brazil, but that helped you keep things in Canada and help you keep your dreams.

[00:09:17] Taty Fittipaldi: So I think that’s an awesome story, of how we can, we should be resilient and, uh, we can, we can grow and we can look for every opportunity. So what, what do you think about that?

[00:09:30] Andre Mindlin: I think when you go abroad, when you move, I mean, and most of the people I most almost connect with, they all moved abroad.

[00:09:38] Andre Mindlin: I think when you move, if you move from São Paulo to Recife or if you move from São Paulo to Manaus it’s a change. It’s a whole different weather pattern. It’s a different culture. It’s a different type of spices and the food and the way people, people behave. So even within Brazil or within one’s own country, there are geographical, cultural differences.[00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Andre Mindlin: But then when you move to a different country, you can, you can probably have that to squared or something that it multiplies. It’s just. The problems, the problems and the challenges become much bigger. So I think some of the challenges are, you, you spoke about resilience and I think at, at least every single person I know that came to Canada, or the ones I know went to the US or other countries.

[00:10:22] Andre Mindlin: I think all, all of one thing in common everybody has is, is resilience and a lot of grit as well, because otherwise you just, you just don’t make it. Because, because as I heard before, um, you’re, you’re being slapped in the face every single day from day one you move to a different country. And um, so the resilience, not only to say, okay, you know what, I lost my job or I’m looking for a job, but the resilience to say, you know what, I have to reset everything I always knew and I always had.

[00:10:53] Andre Mindlin: From the way you deal with the public services, from the way you deal with banks, from the way you deal [00:11:00] with, uh, utility providers, you name it. I mean, the list can go on and on. So, uh, once I read, someone wrote an article back four years ago, even more so, about moving abroad. And one of the things that this person said was, when you move to a different country, it’s like you die.

[00:11:17] Andre Mindlin: And you are, you have to be reborn. And by reborn, sorry, go

[00:11:22] Taty Fittipaldi: ahead. I saw that article, it’s fabulous.

[00:11:26] Andre Mindlin: So it’s, so basically you have no, no credit score. So when I came here, uh, the bank said, I told them, okay, I have some savings, um, can you give me credit? And the answer was, are those savings in Canada? I said, no, they’re not.

[00:11:40] Andre Mindlin: Also, I’m sorry, I cannot give you credit. You’re going to have a credit card with 500. And for the next year you paid in time, don’t exceed 30 percent of the credit that you have. So basically 150 a month. So you had to pre pay your credit card for about a year before they say, okay, you know what, from 500 you can increase it to [00:12:00] 2000 so that you can start making Going from day to day things like groceries, uh, fuel, whatever.

[00:12:06] Andre Mindlin: So, I think to start with, I mean, your time driving a car in Brazil didn’t really count much. So you had to start from scratch with a new driver’s license. You had to start from scratch with the bank, credit score. When you want to rent a house, I mean, you may have been the best payer in Brazil. They, they take it for granted and they, they, they, they just say, no, okay, prove me.

[00:12:26] Andre Mindlin: And sometimes they, they do even things that are illegal by asking 12 months, 12 months of prepaid, which is not lawful here in Canada, but landlords might ask you that. So you’re, you put yourself in a position where you are faced by challenges every single day. And even to other things like, okay, so winter came first time.

[00:12:46] Andre Mindlin: Okay, do I have to shovel the snow every time, or how do I do it? Do I have to wait and see how my neighbors are doing it? So, so it’s really a whole learning curve all the way from scratch. Can you make it? Yeah, of course, everyone can do it. But it [00:13:00] requires a, uh, an open mind to actually pay attention to everything that is going on around you and say, okay, this is how things should work under the circumstances and the environment I’m living.

[00:13:11] Andre Mindlin: So, yeah, but that without resilience and also without discipline. It means nothing. You have to have the discipline to, you know, I mean, okay, I failed today. I’m going to fail tomorrow, but maybe after learning a few times I will no longer fail.

[00:13:25] Taty Fittipaldi: So I captured three, three things that you considered discipline.

[00:13:30] Taty Fittipaldi: Resilience and open minded. Be open

[00:13:34] Andre Mindlin: minded. Be open minded. And also, I mean, just now that you brought it up, I think open minded, when I look at my neighborhood here, um, I mean, I have probably in my street, we may have 15 to 20 different nationalities only in the street where I live. In the building that I lived in Sao Paulo, I would say probably maybe one or two foreigners.

[00:13:59] Andre Mindlin: [00:14:00] Everybody else was Brazilian. So I think, be open to having multicultural environments and seeing people dress differently or behaving differently and understanding that they may sound strange to you, but that speaks to new immigrants, new immigrant countries like Canada, the U. S., probably New Zealand, Australia where we have a lot of those.

[00:14:20] Andre Mindlin: Not saying that other countries don’t see it, but Over here is it’s part of what Canada is.

[00:14:25] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s quite interesting. So you’re mentioning that you are seeing a lot of immigrants around you. So I was wondering this could have been one of the changes in mindset that you have to have but I was wondering what was the biggest change in mindset you had to have when you moved to Canada?

[00:14:45] Andre Mindlin: So I think the biggest change in mindset Maybe in Brazil or possibly Latin America and quite a few countries out there. I think you get used to have people serving you for [00:15:00] things you would have a nanny or you’d have a maid that will help you with the house and you have people In countries like Canada, I mean I can speak for Canada, but the cost of those services are outrageous so In order, so if, even if you make the same amount of money proportionally from Brazil to Canada, ultimately you have to say, okay, you know what, I have to let it go and I have to do a lot of things myself.

[00:15:28] Andre Mindlin: Just because that’s how things are, uh, the do it yourself approach to things, how do you build furniture or how you take care of your backyard or how you shovel your snow. People do hire others. Yes, but not as often as and it’s not as common as back in brazil so one changing the mindset about how people interact and the social gap between who does your lawn if you hire someone And the ceo of your company is not as big as you will see in brazil So sometimes people are like, oh this person is doing a survival job sometimes and this one is a [00:16:00] ceo But ultimately when you look at that I mean, they’re people doing jobs and so I think in Brazil, there is still a little bit of prejudice in a way.

[00:16:09] Andre Mindlin: So I think that that was a very very interesting learning. to see this on a day to day, so this is one. Um, second, it’s also understanding that you don’t know everything. I mean, I planned for many years to come here, as I mentioned before, but I also read somewhere that you only learn to swim when you go into the pool.

[00:16:29] Andre Mindlin: So it doesn’t matter how many books and theories on swimming and improving how you, you swim, unless you go into the water, you don’t, that serves no, that serves for nothing. So, being here, um, that, that changes everything on how we perceive things, how we perceive value on what we are, we are surrounded with.

[00:16:49] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah. and I think many expatriates may relate with that, like they, uh, they say, Oh, I thought that I knew what to expect. But then when I am actually [00:17:00] there. Things change. So this shows how, we, of course, it’s very important to plan everything ahead.

[00:17:06] Taty Fittipaldi: So, because when we are overwhelmed we sometimes don’t have the spirit and the mind in the right place to make a good decision. So it’s good to

[00:17:14] Andre Mindlin: plan ahead. I, I think, I think when, sorry, when I, when I think when most people. I started dreaming about going abroad after they came from an interchange program where they were here in the U.

[00:17:27] Andre Mindlin: S. or Canada for a year learning English in high school. You fly to Canada, you fly to the U. S. with a ticket to fly back home, so you know there is a way in and there is a way out. So everything is very well timed, and you live that life for a year, whether you like it or not, it’s a different thing, but when you come without a ticket, a return ticket, without knowing, okay, will I be there for a year, ten years, for the rest of my life, will I ever go back to Brazil, or any other country for that matter, um, that changes the perspective on [00:18:00] things, so it’s sort of, You approach yourself from where you, everything that you’re used to, again, the food, the music, the, the way people engage, I mean, if you’re going to have a barbecue in here, if you invite Canadians, you invite, okay, let’s have a barbecue from two to four.

[00:18:14] Andre Mindlin: You don’t say come over for a barbecue at two and people will hang it around until whenever they leave Like we are used to in Brazil. So getting used to that type of approach to things And then be open to this is key.

[00:18:30] Taty Fittipaldi: So that’s very curious it’s also probably very challenging but I Wanted to know from you what your was your biggest

[00:18:40] Andre Mindlin: challenge Okay.

[00:18:42] Andre Mindlin: Um, I always liked adventure. I always liked to travel to different places and, um, and expose myself to different environments. And I always thought I didn’t really have roots, uh, in Brazil. So I was like, okay, I, you know what, I’m, I can, I can roam the world at will and it will [00:19:00] be okay. But every time, and I used to travel a lot when I was with G, I was always coming back home.

[00:19:06] Andre Mindlin: I was always coming back to the home I knew, to the place where the family was and cousins, grandparents and parents. And. But then when you move and when you go away and you start seeing that, okay, so now what about my parents and they’re growing older and what about my grandparents? They’re growing older.

[00:19:23] Andre Mindlin: So that was really a challenge for me that I was not expecting. I didn’t see that one coming. I was probably, I was, I didn’t see that one coming on all my planning and all, all my preparation to move. But then when you have the kids. And you start raising those kids, and your daughter goes to you and say, Do I have a grandparent?

[00:19:43] Andre Mindlin: Do I have a grandmother? And when, when, so, so making them understand that their family is more expanded than, than just the nucleus, like father, mother, whatever family structure it is. So when you, when, when [00:20:00] you start getting those questions from the kids, that they don’t understand that their family is larger, that they have more people.

[00:20:05] Andre Mindlin: that wonder about them, care about them, even though they’re not physically here. They don’t understand it, and uh, and also not allowing the parents and grandparents to see their grandchildren and their, or their great grandchildren growing is something that sometimes, uh, I struggle with that part. But other than that, I mean, I think most of the challenges are, are feasible.

[00:20:27] Andre Mindlin: The operational things, banks, driver’s license, You can you can get over it. It’s it’s just bureaucracy. Just get over it. It takes

[00:20:35] Taty Fittipaldi: time So so how did you overcome this this particular challenge that you mentioned?

[00:20:43] Andre Mindlin: How do we deal with this? I think you have to learn to live with it. So, of course, nowadays you have Zoom, you have other tools, FaceTime, and that allows for people to see and be seen.

[00:20:56] Andre Mindlin: So that allows, but again, it doesn’t, does not take away the fact [00:21:00] that you’re 5, 000 miles away, 7, 000 miles away, and therefore, uh, the touch, and feeling the hug, and other things, uh, I mean, it doesn’t matter. I mean, yourself, you’re also an expat, so you know what I’m talking about. So, I think we can overcome with the technology, in a way, that emotional part, in the sense of, okay, family do know real time what’s going on, and so we know what’s going on back in Brazil, almost real time.

[00:21:27] Andre Mindlin: So that is no longer a problem. But that, I think you have to learn. It’s just like, the first time we went back to Brazil, um, coming back to Canada was really painful. The second time was not as painful. So, you just, um, You get that learning, yeah. Yeah, you get that learning, and your skin gets harder. I mean, it’s, the skin gets harder, and it’s easier to deal with those.

[00:21:53] Andre Mindlin: But the feeling that does not

[00:21:55] Taty Fittipaldi: go away. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.[00:22:00] so this comes to since you talked about, the, your kids, that comes to my next question, which was, you know, tell us a little bit, how was the adaptation for your family, for your wife, your kids?

[00:22:13] Taty Fittipaldi: How, how was that for them?

[00:22:15] Andre Mindlin: Oh, the kids, the kids was couldn’t be easier. Um, my daughter was three. My son was one. The dog was a little older, but the three of them handled it beautifully. I mean, nowadays they can navigate very well between Portuguese and English. They can, other than the dog, of course, but, um, but, but I think the three of them really took it very easily.

[00:22:38] Andre Mindlin: They adjusted and, uh, they understood this new culture. The struggle now is to make sure that they understand. That what we see and live here in Canada is not the sole reality of the world. So then when they go back to Brazil, they don’t struggle with the differences the on the way the houses are built, on the way people leave and communicate.

[00:22:58] Andre Mindlin: So we want to make sure that they’re [00:23:00] multicultural and they understand those differences. On the other hand, I think at first my wife struggled significantly for the first year was really difficult for her. Um, one, she has always worked, and when she left her job to move to follow me here, that was really a very painful process for her.

[00:23:19] Andre Mindlin: We moved here right in the middle of the winter, which didn’t make things easier. Uh, when you just come from the airport and you have like two feet of snow in front of the house, and you have to really carve your way through to get to the front door, uh, with a one year old, uh, on your, on your arms, and so I think she struggled a lot.

[00:23:37] Andre Mindlin: Then when she was getting Better with understanding the new reality. Um, there was a situation with G and then everything that was improving went back backwards for quite some time. So, but I would say she said at some point something that was interesting. She said it for her. Canada was a, uh, an unarranged [00:24:00] marriage.

[00:24:01] Andre Mindlin: So it’s like someone pushed her to engage with this country. So at first there was hatred, like, I mean, why? I mean, why am I being pulled from where I like and where I’m comfortable and start engaging with this, uh, this new country? Then later she said, well, you know what, I mean, we got the security, we got this, we got that, we get this benefit, we get this other benefit.

[00:24:21] Andre Mindlin: We get to see new people, new cultures, new, new places. So what was hatred started moving into, okay, you know what, I don’t dislike it so much too. Okay. I like it. And I think she’s now moving from the, I’m liking it very much to, I’m starting to love it. So, but it takes some time. So I, I mean, I hear a lot from a lot of people that moved first, if you can make it through the first year, maybe to the, to the second year.

[00:24:44] Andre Mindlin: Then you’re probably bound to be successful. The first year is really tough.

[00:24:49] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s yes. That’s very interesting you know, I Published an article on the five phases of the expatriation adaptation [00:25:00] process And what you described about your uh, wife is exactly that like you go through a denial phase And then you go to a resistant phase You’re not denying but you know, you’re you’re sort of still resisting and then you start exploring you start, you know testing out things and then Things start not being that bad , it’s very interesting that you said that And it’s good because uh other people will probably relate to that too.

[00:25:27] Taty Fittipaldi: So you mentioned in the beginning Resilience, discipline, uh, be open minded. I was wondering based on your experience coming to Canada What skills do you think a person has to have in order to be able to adapt, you know, to all these changes, all this new big transition, which is moving to a different

[00:25:49] Andre Mindlin: country?

[00:25:50] Andre Mindlin: Okay. Okay. I’m trying to steer away from all those skills that I already mentioned, but I think at the end of the day, um, let’s, let’s start trying to steer away [00:26:00] a little bit from the old being open to the new. Right. Um, when you come to Canada, they’re like, okay, uh, companies in order to hire you, they want to see you have what they call Canadian experience.

[00:26:12] Andre Mindlin: So basically they want to see if you’re able to adapt. Okay. To the canadian corporate culture. What does it mean? Honestly, I don’t know it can mean a lot can mean maybe maybe it means nothing I didn’t face it because I moved here with GE and then I moved to a different job here So I didn’t face that that struggle that a lot of the immigrants face When they are trying to find their first job in the country.

[00:26:34] Andre Mindlin: So, um, but I think, I think sometimes people are like, Oh, we cannot get hired unless you have this experience. So they, they sort of take a step back instead of, instead of trying to keep plugging, keep plugging away. And I think one has to be very persistent and, and first be persistent in getting things fixed, whatever that is.

[00:26:56] Andre Mindlin: Finding a job, finding a house. How many examples of friends [00:27:00] we have here that they fail to get their houses simply because Their credit score was not good enough or they couldn’t prove income or they couldn’t so there may be a quite a few different reasons So what you do, do you simply give up and go back and then you just throw away all that you learn?

[00:27:18] Andre Mindlin: So uh being uh, keep being persistent is one which is different from being resilient. Um, but the resilience has been is is sort of uh A fancy word these days, but I think it’s, it’s a good one that actually represents what we are faced every day again, to the point on, on being open to the new, when you go to the office, you have to talk to people from different cultures.

[00:27:44] Andre Mindlin: And I have seen friends, Brazilian friends who are like, Oh, I may not be able to get a job because my, my English is not perfect. But when you look around yourself, at least in the great Toronto area, where probably 60 percent of everyone living around here. Was not born in Canada. [00:28:00] Then a foreign accent is not, doesn’t make you different.

[00:28:04] Andre Mindlin: You’re probably the majority. So, maybe your accent is Brazilian, but the guy next door is Indian, and the other one is Pakistani, the other one is Chinese, whatever. So, but people are afraid. And so, um, don’t try to go for, uh, for this thing. I have to be perfect on things. And, and in Brazil we are, I recall people saying, unless I’m An expert in what I’m doing, or a perfect in what I’m doing, I’m going to try to take that step.

[00:28:31] Andre Mindlin: There is a need here, when you, when you take this, when you, when you go into, uh, Guarulhos, or when you go to Galeão, and you fly out of Brazil to, to Canada, you already took a leap of faith. It is a leap of faith, no matter how hard you, oh no, it was a very clever decision, or it was a very well thought out decision.

[00:28:50] Andre Mindlin: It is a leap of faith. It doesn’t matter how long, how you want to look at this. Continue taking those leap of faith. What is the worst that can happen? Refuse to go to a job? Not getting a house? [00:29:00] Okay, go, keep moving. You know, turn the page and uh, don’t give up. Um, I did meet a few Brazilians here that they gave up a year, year and a half later and they were, they came here and they were expecting that the country, the country, the country is always doing this advertising.

[00:29:16] Andre Mindlin: Oh, we want immigrants. We want people. Of course, the country needs people. But it doesn’t know it doesn’t mean that the country will be giving jobs away and giving you housing and other things So what is it that those people expected when they showed up here at pearson airport and they were like, okay Where’s my job now?

[00:29:33] Andre Mindlin: Oh, i’m gonna run out of cash. Oh, I didn’t plan accordingly So what get a job get something? I mean do something at least to reduce the bleaching that you may have in your financials If that’s the case, um, I know a lot of people that they do a lot of different work here. One of our great friends here, he’s a contractor.

[00:29:51] Andre Mindlin: He does a lot of, uh, he’s a handyman and he lives very well. And he was, he was an architect back in Brazil and he decided to be a handyman [00:30:00] here. He’s happy. He’s making his money and he’s taking care of his family. Well, it’s fine. But that is the mindset that um, I feel that sometimes our culture in brazil prevents us from from taking that That step and say okay.

[00:30:13] Andre Mindlin: It’s sometimes it’s easy for a brazilian say, okay, you know what i’m gonna take vacation I’m going to london and i’ll be a barman But sometimes when they get a job a job offer to be a barman in brazil They’re like, oh, no, that’s not my job the job for me. What is the difference? So, so I think, um, that the understanding that things are different and should be treated as such is probably going to be key to survival in the long run.

[00:30:37] Andre Mindlin: So

[00:30:37] Taty Fittipaldi: It sounds like you’re saying also besides the persistency and the resilience, open minded, uh, and discipline, you’re also saying courageous. So you have to be courageous and you have to, put yourself out there and make sure, things happen. Take action.

[00:30:53] Andre Mindlin: But, but you have to be courageous to live in Sao Paulo.

[00:30:57] Andre Mindlin: Every time you go get your car, drive to your office, [00:31:00] go visit a friend, you have to be courageous. You have to be courageous to leave. That’s the, that’s the, that’s the sole truth. But we start taking some things for granted. Traffic is not a problem. Security in Sao Paulo, you know what? I’m gonna buy a bulletproof car and I will just keep on leaving.

[00:31:14] Andre Mindlin: Um, so I would say, you know, being courageous is key. But, uh, but I think it, it just flourishes in a different way when you are in a different country. It just forces you to, to, to, uh, And being afraid of things is not a problem. I mean, I think we all are, we are concerned, we are afraid, we all have fears.

[00:31:34] Andre Mindlin: But there is a difference between, when you have a fear, there is a difference between freezing or trying to take action, right? If you freeze, then you’re probably bound for failure. Okay, I mean, I think that the mountain climbers that, that climb to Everest and K2s and off the world, they are not unafraid of climbing.

[00:31:56] Andre Mindlin: Fear keeps them alive because they are more paying, paying more [00:32:00] attention to what’s going on around them. So I think we should also learn how to handle our fears. Because they, they keep us, um, they keep things in our radar. They keep, we keep on looking at things just to make sure we don’t fall into those crevices or we have those problems.

[00:32:16] Andre Mindlin: So, yeah, that’s another thing that probably understanding how to manage fear is key along with being courageous. Which can be, they’re not opposed. Being courageous and fear, they’re not opposite.

[00:32:26] Taty Fittipaldi: I love it. I love it. And that reminds me of that, uh, of that phrase. I laugh at the face of fear.

[00:32:34] Andre Mindlin: There you go.

[00:32:36] Andre Mindlin: Yeah. The other day I gave a presentation to my team here and, uh, one of the things I, I think it’s from Evel Knievel. And they say bones heal, but the glory is forever. So you know what? What is the worst that can happen?

[00:32:47] Taty Fittipaldi: Exactly, that’s so true. So my next one is I wanted you to share a story of something that happens to you and your family that helped [00:33:00] you become more adapted or helped you adapt better.

[00:33:04] Taty Fittipaldi: think,

[00:33:05] Andre Mindlin: to help adapt better, honestly, it’s all about people. It’s really about people. Um, again, you can go through all the bureaucracy and get all the paperwork done, but that’s, that’s just paper. So that doesn’t adapt you to things. But when you get to a new place, you don’t, it comes the weekend, you don’t know what to do.

[00:33:22] Andre Mindlin: Or who to meet or where to go. So we happen to have a family of friends, uh living here in Toronto when we arrived here Um, they were not close friends. They were just more acquaintances back then then they became really friends and even more so family Um our first year as I mentioned before it was really painful through and through No matter how hard I try to look at this.

[00:33:45] Andre Mindlin: It was a pain All the way. Um, but it would have been much worse if it wasn’t for this family. They were there for us every single step of the way. They were there for us to pick us up at the airport. They were there for us [00:34:00] every time we, we were crashing and wanted to cry ourselves in our tears. And, uh, and, and they did a, they made, they made us understand that people are here to help each other.

[00:34:12] Andre Mindlin: And, and interestingly enough, you see a lot of people helping each other when they’re abroad. That happens way too often, which sounded like, wow, I mean, there’s, there is a future for, for mankind. So, so I think that family made us survive for this first year. Um, and then we were, when we were here for a little over a year, um, this friend of ours, he was transferred back to the U.

[00:34:35] Andre Mindlin: S., to Texas. And so we saw our support, support family leaving. We had a few other friends back then. Um, it was almost four years ago now. Um, but when they left, um, it was like, okay, so we are losing our ground again. I mean, they’re removing the floor from the lower feet. So that was really painful. But I think in order for you [00:35:00] to adapt, you have to get to know people.

[00:35:01] Andre Mindlin: You will meet great people. You will meet people that are just there for a reason or for a certain amount of time. You will And that will not stay on. I mean, we, we get to, we got to meet people. Didn’t really turn into a friendship or a networking that was worth sustaining. But on the other hand, we also met a lot of people that we, we, we keep very dear to our hearts at this point.

[00:35:23] Andre Mindlin: And they became like, uh, like one of your former interviewees. Uh, she said like a soul family.

[00:35:29] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s very interesting. So, actually, that comes to one of my last questions, which is, I see very often how having support groups really helps expatriates. And it sounds like this family that you just mentioned, they were part of your support group.

[00:35:48] Taty Fittipaldi: So, I was wondering if you can tell a little bit about what kinds of support did you surround yourself with, to help you out, especially in the first years. Okay. [00:36:00]

[00:36:00] Andre Mindlin: Um, as I said, people, so we got to know more people. We were making a trial and error. So we met good people. We met people that were just not in line with our beliefs and our expectations of behavior, but that’s fine.

[00:36:12] Andre Mindlin: I mean, there is nothing wrong there is, uh, they say that birds of the same feathers fly together, right? So, uh, we met birds that were not the same feathers. So, uh, went separate ways, but, uh, I get, uh, we got closer and closer to a lot of. People to quite a few people and we still have very good friends. We meet every weekend or every other weekend, sometimes even during the weekend.

[00:36:33] Andre Mindlin: Uh, we are here to help for with, uh, Oh, I need to leave my kid because I need to go do this or I need, I’m having a medical problem. Can you drive my kid to the hospital? So we, we end up having that support, um, support network that actually helps at the end of the day. Um, there are quite a few groups of Brazilians here.

[00:36:51] Andre Mindlin: I’m not directly involved with some of them. There are quite a few, uh, group support network, like one of them is called Network for Brazilians. Amazing job that those girls are [00:37:00] doing. Um, I tried to engage with them a few times and they opened the doors for me. It’s just that my agenda, my schedule was not, was really not helping a lot.

[00:37:09] Andre Mindlin: I did support a few newcomers, uh, by WhatsApp or phone calls to help them understand where they should go to do this or what should they do to obtain. So the helping others has also become something that is really interesting. So I think we feel that it’s very natural when someone shows up at your door and say, Hey, can you help me make my move to my new house?

[00:37:29] Andre Mindlin: Yeah, let’s go carry some, some, some boxes and, and fix some paintings on the wall. That’s fine. And, um, because we got that, we received that from people that we barely knew. So, so I think those supporting groups are key. Um, during that first year, especially, I think, I think, uh, trying to keep yourself in shape.

[00:37:49] Andre Mindlin: was really key as well. So making, going exercise and, and trying to do that. Even to this day, I try to go biking every morning, uh, at least for an hour or so. [00:38:00] Um, some friends are trying to create like competitions and I’m not, I’m not, I’m just for the fun. But, um, but yeah, I would say keep yourself physically.

[00:38:09] Andre Mindlin: Uh, healthy helps mentally, but also engaging with people will help keep, uh, the spirits and, and emotions that, uh, under control.

[00:38:19] Taty Fittipaldi: I love the tip about health. I think we usually, you know, forget about that, uh, especially when we’re very overwhelmed. We sometimes You know, uh, leave aside some areas of of our life and and sometimes we leave the health

[00:38:33] Andre Mindlin: Uh, so easy to do it.

[00:38:35] Andre Mindlin: It’s probably the first thing that it’s left aside

[00:38:38] Taty Fittipaldi: So our last, question, for this show is actually, so we are going to, uh, launch a deck of cards in October. And I wanted you to have a first glance of one of the cards. So how I wanted to do this is show the cards to you, you’re going to read the card, and then you’re going to tell [00:39:00] me whatever comes to your head.

[00:39:03] Taty Fittipaldi: Regarding on how the content of the card or the concept of that card relates to your adaptation process. I chose a card randomly. You got the number three of the black deck.

[00:39:19] Andre Mindlin: Okay. I decide my life’s vision and purpose. I’m, I’m in control of my life. Visionary ideas crystallizing to my mind, providing me understanding and creativity in my life.

[00:39:29] Andre Mindlin: Enlightenment. Oh, that’s an interesting one. Visionary ideas. Hmm. I think, I think, I think we are a consequence of who, of our thoughts, right? I mean. If we wanna believe that we’ll succeed, we’ll find a way to succeed. I mean, it might take a year, two years, two years, but then when we, when you visual, when you put into your mind, oh, you know what, I’m a failure.

[00:39:54] Andre Mindlin: I mean, you’re also bound to do it. It becomes like a self-fulfilled prophecy. So, [00:40:00] um, I’m not saying that you have to be like, everything is rosy and everything looks awesome, and no, it’s not pretending or, or trying to paint gold where it shouldn’t be painted gold. Right. I, I think we have to be very truthful to ourselves.

[00:40:16] Andre Mindlin: But really, creativity is hard sometimes. Um, I mean, I don’t think I am very creative in many ways, but I think that I am very strong in visualizing what I want to accomplish. So, um, and then making plan A, plan B, and pivoting from one plan to another, and understanding that pivoting doesn’t mean failing.

[00:40:40] Andre Mindlin: Uh, changing the direction doesn’t mean, uh, That you’re bad, or your original idea was not successful. So, so definitely, we have to have a clear understanding of what is the end goal. Where do you want to go? What do you want to be? What is it that’s going to make you happy? I have friends here [00:41:00] in Canada, one of them is living in Vancouver, amazing guy.

[00:41:03] Andre Mindlin: He had a very nice position back in Brazil and, uh, he came back here and he started from scratch. Literally, he was a controller in a company, in a very large, um, uh, construction company. And he came here and his first job was really, his first job, he was counting, uh, underwear inventory for Victoria’s Secret from midnight to 4am.

[00:41:25] Andre Mindlin: He was not ashamed to do it. He said, and then, and then when I met him, and that was back in January, he said something, he said, I had standard of, I had standard of life of living in Brazil. And I exchanged that standard, I wanted to exchange from standard of living to quality of life. So he said, I made much less money here than I used to make back in Brazil.

[00:41:47] Andre Mindlin: But still I can have a car, I still can travel, I still can enjoy a better air quality and other things that he valued more. It’s not wrong if you want to stay in Sao Paulo, by all means, I have most of my [00:42:00] family all there. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but if that is what drives you, that’s fine.

[00:42:06] Andre Mindlin: But if that doesn’t drive you, then taking that leap of faith and, you know what, putting your mind to work to this. Yesterday, another acquaintance of mine here in Toronto, he texted me saying that he finally, after three and a half years, he managed to get his permanent, his process to get to into the permanent residency.

[00:42:23] Andre Mindlin: This guy struggled big time for three and a half years here to get to that. And honestly, I mean, uh, he really struggled, right? I mean, he couldn’t get a job and then he, he, he had to face a ton of different problems in his life here, but he never gave up. I mean, there was a few communications that lead two years ago from him, and I was like, wow.

[00:42:43] Andre Mindlin: I mean, he’s plan, probably planning on going back, but he never did. So he, he crystallized this in his mind and that became reality. And now he’s accomplishing this kudos to him. And to pretty much everyone who is able to, to cross the ocean and, um, and try life where they [00:43:00] believe their life should

[00:43:00] Taty Fittipaldi: be.

[00:43:01] Taty Fittipaldi: Absolutely. Reinventing ourselves is not something easy, but, uh, but it’s definitely worth it, right? We, we of course struggle, but it’s definitely worth it. And again, if,

[00:43:13] Andre Mindlin: if it doesn’t work, um, go back. I mean, you can always go back to Brazil. I mean, or you can always go back to your home country if that’s the case.

[00:43:21] Andre Mindlin: And doesn’t mean it’s a

[00:43:22] Taty Fittipaldi: fail, it just means that it is what it is, things are meant to be.

[00:43:27] Andre Mindlin: So when I tried to climb the Aconcagua back in 2010, um, I got very close to the summit, I got about 150, 200 meters to the summit. I didn’t make it for multiple reasons, um, and I was very disappointed. And the guide told me, he said, he told me, that was your summit.

[00:43:47] Andre Mindlin: You’re better making it to that summit and coming back alive with that experience. Then making another 150 meters and dead and not having a story to tell. Absolutely. So, so I, [00:44:00] I, I, I definitely see the value of trying. I mean, again, if you think about it, what is the worst that can happen?

[00:44:07] Taty Fittipaldi: Absolutely. That’s, that’s awesome.

[00:44:10] Taty Fittipaldi: Andre, thank you so much for being here. Uh, I really loved your stories and you, they’re very inspiring and I’m absolutely sure that you. It will inspire, uh, a lot of other people. Um, is there anything else you want to share last with us before we part ways?

[00:44:29] Andre Mindlin: No, no. First, I thank you for the, for the opportunity to talk to you and see you again after a few years we haven’t connected, so that’s definitely really good, really great.

[00:44:38] Andre Mindlin: Um, but definitely to anyone out there who wants to do it, if you have the means and you have the, they say it here, I don’t know if they say it the same in the US, but they say if there is a will, there is a way.

[00:44:50] Taty Fittipaldi: There is a will, there is a way, yeah.

[00:44:52] Andre Mindlin: So, try it, try it. I mean, it’s not gonna be rosy, it’s not gonna be easy, especially in the first year.

[00:44:59] Andre Mindlin: But why [00:45:00] not? Why not? I mean, go for it. Keep plugging in, and if it happens to go back to Brazil, you’re bringing back the experience.

[00:45:12] Taty Fittipaldi: True. We’re always learning, right? That’s a mastery orientation kind of mindset. Exactly. Once again, thank you so much. I’m so glad. Thank you very much for being here with us today.

[00:45:26] Andre Mindlin: My pleasure, Tati. Anytime.

[00:45:27]

[00:45:27] HIGHLIGHTS

[00:45:27] Taty Fittipaldi: This brings us to the end of these Leadership Nest episode. I trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your decisions and performance in critical global leadership roles in situations. Stay tuned for a next joy ride with expatriates interview! we promise to surprise you with new stories and concepts to help you learn more about international relocation, acclimation and cultural integrations.

[00:45:56] Taty Fittipaldi: Wherever you are in the globe, this is Taty Fittipaldi [00:46:00] wishing you a beautiful day.

[00:46:01] Taty Fittipaldi: If you have any questions, you’d like us to answer in a future episode of this show, just go to speakpipe.com/tatyfittipaldi or click the link in the show notes, to leave us a brief audio message.

[00:46:19] Taty Fittipaldi: Make sure to visit us on our website www.theleadershipnest.com, where you can subscribe to our show anywhere podcasts are streamed, so you never miss the fun.

[00:46:32] Taty Fittipaldi: While there, if you find value in our show, you can also subscribe to our global leadership weekly newsletter from Coaching Expatriates®, where we deliver bite-sized lessons on global leadership, decision-making, and cultural competence to help you learn how to think, relate and strategize in a whole different way as a global leader.

[00:46:54] Taty Fittipaldi: If you liked our show, you might want to check her online global executive leadership program.[00:47:00] A nine week leadership development and learning system, that will help you lead internationally while making financially conscious and impactful business decisions.

[00:47:10] Taty Fittipaldi: Taty Fittipaldi is also available for private coaching. See the websites for more details at www.coachingexpatriates.com/executive-coaching.

[00:47:22] Taty Fittipaldi: Thanks for joining us this week on The Leadership Nest podcast. I trust you found a value in acquiring insights that can elevate your performance in critical global leadership roles and situations.

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