S2 EP010 | Joyride With Expatriates – When Turkish Coffee Meets Finland

[00:00:00] INTRODUCTION

[00:00:00]

[00:00:04] Taty Fittipaldi: Hello and welcome to The Leadership Nest podcast. This is season two of the global leadership podcast that combines stories, knowledge and science to soar the leadership in you. I’m your host Taty Fittipaldi. During this season, we invited 20 different expatriates from around the world to share their stories, their learning journeys, and their tips to make you a better leader and an inspired person. You can also watch the live interviews on our YouTube channel! Search for Coaching Expatriates® channel, then select the playlist called Joyride With Expatriates.

[00:00:43] Taty Fittipaldi: In today’s episode, we’ll talk with Nazli Alimen, who was born in Turkey and had the opportunity to live in the uk, Italy, and Finland. Here is her story.

[00:00:57] JOYRIDE WITH AN EXPATRIATE

(This section’s transcript was AI-generated and may contain errors)

[00:00:57] Taty Fittipaldi: Hi, Nazli. Thank you [00:01:00] so much for joining our show. I’m so happy to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining.

[00:01:05] Nazli Alimen: Hi, Tatiana. Thank you very much for inviting me.

[00:01:10] Taty Fittipaldi: I am super excited. How about we start by you sharing your background. Where were you born and what did you used to do in your country before you started your international journey?

[00:01:23] Nazli Alimen: Yes, I was born in Turkey and I was raised there. Uh, after completing my BA studies. Sorry, I will just start. I was born in Turkey and I was raised there. And after completing my BA studies in fashion design and business, I decided to uh, concentrate on English, on my English language skills. So it was kind of my dream to go to New York and study English.

[00:01:52] Nazli Alimen: So this is what I did. It was really a strange year because I just arrived after September [00:02:00] 11th and stayed there for around Nine months I studied English and then I also continued studying English in Brighton, England for academic English because I was planning to do a master’s degree, an English program.

[00:02:18] Nazli Alimen: So I, I stayed in Brighton about three, four months. It was a long time ago. It was at the end of 2002. Uh, then I changed my plans and I decided to do my master’s in Italy. Rather than the UK or any other English speaking country.

[00:02:37] Taty Fittipaldi: A nice place to go to.

[00:02:39] Nazli Alimen: Yeah. Very nice. Especially for someone studying fashion or, you know, Yes.

[00:02:49] Nazli Alimen: So I moved, I moved to Milan and I studied, I started studying fashion. studying Italian. Then I did my master’s in brand management at Isoluto Marangoni [00:03:00] and I had like about two years work experience in the usual merchandising, mostly with Benetton, an Italian brand, as you, as you may know. Then I decided to Um, advanced my academic career, and I started to do that with, um, an ma, sorry, MBA, uh, business administration degree because I thought I, I would greatly benefit from that studying, studying business administration, because previously it was more about like visual side of, of branding and business.

[00:03:38] Nazli Alimen: So I started doing my, uh, MBA. In is previously I, I lived in Istanbul and grew up there, so I moved to Isme. It’s, it’s, it’s the, it’s the third largest city in Turkey, located on the West coast, uh, directly facing Greece. Uh, and after my MBA, my MBA [00:04:00] took two years. And during my MBA program, I also had the Erasmus Opportunity Student Exchange Program.

[00:04:09] Nazli Alimen: in Europe. So I spent a semester in Verona at Verona University. I don’t know if you’ve been there. Um, there is a house of Juliet, Julietta and Romeo. You can visit the house of Julietta, Romeo and Juliet. And Dante Alighieri wrote a part of his divine Um, there, um, so it was also a nice, nice experience. And I was back to Italy and I was glad that I was very happy about that.

[00:04:43] Nazli Alimen: Then after my MBA, I started doing my PhD in business administration, again, in my, uh, city, Nismir. I went back to the same city. And after two years, I said that, um, it’s not, [00:05:00] um, topic I want to work on and I should move to passion studies more. Then I met Professor Rina Lovis and she was happy to have me as a PhD student.

[00:05:12] Nazli Alimen: Then I moved to London and I lived there for five years, completed my PhD in marketing and cultural studies. Then I moved back to Izmir, uh, and as I got a postdoc opportunity in Helsinki, I moved to Helsinki and started working at the University of Helsinki. Then I got a job, a lecturer position in Birmingham, England.

[00:05:38] Nazli Alimen: at Birmingham City University. So this is where I am at the moment in Birmingham, England, and I’ve been working at Birmingham City University.

[00:05:46] Taty Fittipaldi: Wow. Wow. What a journey. So you had many, many expatriation experiences.

[00:05:53] Nazli Alimen: Yeah. Um, I think I’ve been working. I’m for sure I’ve been living [00:06:00] abroad for 10 years, for more than 10 years, but I don’t know exactly how long.

[00:06:05] Nazli Alimen: Probably I should give some time and calculate so I can give you the exact time, but for sure for over 10 years and I lived in the US. UK, Finland, and Italy.

[00:06:18] Taty Fittipaldi: Italy. And what was your biggest challenges in these countries while you were adapting there? What, what was the biggest challenges?

[00:06:29] Nazli Alimen: The biggest challenge was the language barrier because when I arrived to New York, my English was really very poor because I didn’t study, um, any of my degrees at a secondary school or high school, called high school in the American context, or my BA degree, all of them were in Turkish. So my English was quite poor.

[00:06:52] Nazli Alimen: So this was the biggest challenge. Also in Italy, you know, as I arrived, I didn’t know any Italian, and I was trying to communicate [00:07:00] in, in English. And although I was in, I was in Milan, it’s, it’s, you know, like it’s a multicultural, it’s a trade industry city. Um, there weren’t many people speaking English.

[00:07:12] Nazli Alimen: And sometimes there were, there were misunderstandings. For example, when I first. to Milan. I needed to get, um, residency permits. I needed to go to the police office and so on. And they gave me a list, uh, what I needed to get. And it was, you know, like in, in every country they request this, you have to do it in, uh, in the first, uh, or in the first 10 working days and so on.

[00:07:41] Nazli Alimen: And they gave, they distributed the list in English. So it was easy for me to understand what they request. However, and back then the internet connection was not that good. And I just arrived to the country. I didn’t have wifi or. mobile connection. So I was [00:08:00] thinking because I, I needed to get a stamp and they stated the value, let’s say like six euro stamp, uh, as part of my application.

[00:08:11] Nazli Alimen: And I thought maybe I can go to a new stamp. This is where I can get a stamp. This is what I was thinking. And I asked the lady, I went to a nearby newsstand, I just noticed it, and I asked the lady, she was in her 50s, and I asked him quite slowly, like, can I get a stamp, please, etc. And she was like, and I thought like, Italian is, because I was thinking like it’s like Latin language and English has a basis in Latin and Italian is just read as it’s written.

[00:08:50] Nazli Alimen: So I thought it would be easier for her to understand if I said, like if I just pronounced the word as it’s written. So I said, and she was like, [00:09:00] and there was newspapers outside, and she was pointing them to me. I was looking at those newspapers. I’m like, woman, I cannot even speak Italian. Why are you showing me those newspapers?

[00:09:15] Nazli Alimen: Then I learned the as a newspaper. And the stamp is called Franco Bolo in Italian. Yeah, I don’t remember like what happened afterwards who helped me to get a stamp. I finally managed. But like, I still remember that moment because it was really, you know, remarkable. La stampa story, my stampa story. So it was the biggest challenge for me, the language barrier.

[00:09:46] Nazli Alimen: And another one is the cultural difference. And the thing is, in this highly globalizing world, you know, every country is getting similar, all countries are getting similar to each other. [00:10:00] However, some countries are still like, they still have distinct cultures. For example, in Finland, and I come from, uh, Turkey.

[00:10:10] Nazli Alimen: Middle East, Eastern Mediterranean country, you know, we are like warm blooded, friendly, and we easily develop relationships with people. And so, um, England is sits somewhere in between. I’ve been on this totally different, you know, people are quite reserved and cold. So it was really difficult for me to communicate with people and also making friends.

[00:10:36] Nazli Alimen: But later on, I realized that like, for example, in my culture or in Greece, in Italy, or in Brazil, I think as people meet, they are quite warm and welcoming. I think we are just kind of building those. bridges, relationships, and after like some time of interaction, we start eliminating people, [00:11:00] you know, some of them remain with us, and some of them we see them from time to time, and some of them, no, so, but this thing works on, in contrary, in, in the Finnish culture, this is how I interpret it, you know, people do not get friendly, Um, immediately, unlike my own culture, but it takes them time, you know, they, they develop the relationship.

[00:11:29] Nazli Alimen: And after that, you know, you really become good friends. So it’s, it’s, it’s the opposite way. So it was really challenging for me as I,

[00:11:38] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, that’s an interesting perspective. yeah…

[00:11:41] Nazli Alimen: but later on, I still have friends from Finland. Okay. There are a few friends, but like, we really have good quality. Contact, and we still hear from each other. So the process works differently.

[00:11:56] Taty Fittipaldi: Interesting. That’s a very interesting [00:12:00] perspective, Nazli. Very interesting. And, so you were talking about this, how people engage differently in the countries. So do you have any tips for our viewers to avoid misunderstandings in these cultures that you have been?

[00:12:16] Nazli Alimen: I think the best thing is to hear from people who have, uh, experience.

[00:12:20] Nazli Alimen: Variants in certain countries. So this is what I could recommend. People, uh, moving to

[00:12:25] Taty Fittipaldi: connect with people that has,

[00:12:28] Nazli Alimen: in this respect, I think your podcasts are very helpful. So they can hear from people who lived in different countries. So it’s good. And, um, yeah, and I think people need to be open minded and if they feel they are offended or like, if, if they don’t understand something, then they can kindly ask, I’m sorry, this is what you said, or like, even if they cannot Ask this to the person, then they can ask another [00:13:00] person.

[00:13:00] Nazli Alimen: You know, I’ve been told this and that, and. In my mind, it’s quite offensive or it’s not okay, or it made me feel like I wasn’t doing something well, or like, it’s, it’s good to find out. But the first thing is to be open minded and open to different perspectives, experiences, and so on.

[00:13:29] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, absolutely. So ask other people that have already some experiences and ask them their perspective, right?

[00:13:36] Taty Fittipaldi: Because sometimes we view things and we say, Oh, that’s so offensive, but that sometimes it’s just part of the culture and it makes sense there. It’s not to be offensive. It means something different in the local place, right?

[00:13:52] Nazli Alimen: For example, when I was working at Helsinki University, uh, admin officers wrote me an email saying because previously [00:14:00] I attended one exam, one exam, uh, as part of a course I developed and delivered there.

[00:14:10] Nazli Alimen: But the second time he told me that I didn’t need to be in the, in the exam room. And I thought, and, and he wrote it quite like, um, I wouldn’t say negative, but quite like natural and very direct way. And I couldn’t make sense of it. And I thought like I did something bad. I did something, uh, in inappropriate way.

[00:14:36] Nazli Alimen: So I was just being, being put aside and, you know, like, For over an hour I was like, I was thinking and I really felt bad. And then I spoke to a professor who was kind of my mentor at Helsinki University and he said, look, We Finnish people are, are just like this, you know, we don’t do a chit chat and like either it’s [00:15:00] verbal or written communication, we are just straightforward to the point.

[00:15:05] Nazli Alimen: Straight to business. Yeah, straight to business. And he was telling me, and do not forget there is no word for please in the Finnish language, so we don’t like, we are just, if you are doing something, you are expected to do it well. Ah. This is the way how they communicate. And I remember. When I went to the department meeting for the first time, I took some bananas and nuts with me, you know, like when you are having a meeting, you chit chat and like, and I put them in the middle of the table.

[00:15:41] Nazli Alimen: And that mentor, Yes, I know because he worked in the States in South Africa and so on. And he told me like, I know in different countries, it’s very common to bring some food, snacks and so on. However, in Finland, we just need to [00:16:00] cover what we need to cover. And. We just end the meeting. So there’s no need for Bono.

[00:16:07] Nazli Alimen: I was like, okay. And you got the message. You got the message. Okay. No, and also for me, like when you have to, because when I was studying and working in London, from time to time, we would get together in the staff room for it, okay, for the school. meeting, but also we would have some wine and nibbles, you know, and I thought it would be the same.

[00:16:31] Nazli Alimen: However, there are like also the faculty meeting, like we’ve just got together and if it’s like, if it’s planned for 30 minutes, it ends. Yeah,

[00:16:43] Taty Fittipaldi: it’s interesting because there are a lot of cultures. So for example, I come from Brazil and being social also relates to food. So, we usually do things. We connect social with food too. Yeah. It’s interesting. It’s an interesting perspective. [00:17:00] Yeah.

[00:17:00] Nazli Alimen: And it’s also showing your. Love and showing you care. Yeah, and, and friendliness and friendly feedback. Yeah, mm hmm. Yeah, but things are different, but after that, like, there are some good things in each culture, in each country, and good things.

[00:17:19] Nazli Alimen: For example, another good thing is people would always mind their own business. You know, they will be, they will, they’re not nosy or your personal life. Um, for example, when I arrived to Birmingham to work, my experience was totally different than what I had in London, but like. Before my arrival, my friends told me, like, London is totally different than the rest of the country, so be prepared.

[00:17:46] Nazli Alimen: And also, like, when I started working, my colleagues were like, Oh, so do you have a boyfriend? Do you do this? And they were talking about my personal life, about my religion, you know, and I found [00:18:00] them quite, and they were, such questions were very inappropriate. So, be prepared. Maybe they thought they were caring.

[00:18:06] Nazli Alimen: They were showing interest in me. Yeah, there are such things and I was sometimes I was, I was thinking like, uh, can they just be like Finnish people? Everybody’s like, and you know, sometimes kind of forced socializing. You know, you’re expected to join this Christmas dinner or like after work, pub meeting and so on.

[00:18:29] Nazli Alimen: And I’m like, okay, it would be very nice to have Finnish colleagues.

[00:18:35] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s a very interesting perspective. So, so let me ask you something. So what would you think people could ask to show that they are curious about you? But without being nosy, without making you feel that you are kind of, being too nosy in their things and their lives, especially when you don’t know the person yet, right?

[00:18:56] Nazli Alimen: Yeah, exactly. Um, because the [00:19:00] thing is, I think they kind of have some overall ideas about people coming from, for example, South America, Mediterranean, Middle East, something like we are warm, friendly and so on. However, we still have our limits. For example, it’s not good to ask people about their religion or like which church do you belong to, which sect do you belong to, you know, it’s the case.

[00:19:26] Nazli Alimen: Um, Especially people, let’s say like from people from Lebanon, it’s like a no, no thing as you get to know people, you know, like whether they are Muslim, Christian, Jews, you know, and so on. So there are, there are limits. Okay, we are friendly, warm blooded people, however, there are limits. And also, like asking such personal questions, don’t mean that you are being friendly and so on.

[00:19:56] Nazli Alimen: What I would recommend is try to build a [00:20:00] kind of a report kind of, uh, initial relationship. And the thing is, for example, when I started working here in my first week, one of my colleagues and we work in an open office, she was asking me like, if I, if I consumed alcohol, if I ate pork and so on. And another thing is if a person comes from a Muslim Muslim majority or like Jewish majority, if they come from Israel, it doesn’t mean they are Jewish or they are, they are practicing Jews, you know?

[00:20:31] Nazli Alimen: So they shouldn’t have such assumptions. and get to know and, and about that, that colleague, I’d rather prefer her to ask me, let’s, let’s have a cup of tea and chat, you know, not in an open office, because I don’t want to discuss my point of view in terms of like religion, my personal life and so on, you know, and, and personal life, especially, I think it even comes after the religion, [00:21:00] because you might be interested in the culture.

[00:21:02] Nazli Alimen: Unusual disinterest. You know what happens like it’s a Muslim majority country. Is it possible to find pork? Do people consume alcohol and so on? And I can explain there are secular Muslims, and they are observant Muslims and so on, like, even if they observe, you know, they, they may drink alcohol, but they do not consume pork because it’s a cultural thing and so on.

[00:21:26] Nazli Alimen: So it’s, it’s better to do such things step by step. And also like in a friendly setting, not like in the middle of an open office, like, um, and, and the religion thing, it’s, it’s like asking someone directly, how much you burn, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not good. And it’s like, they should also think like,

[00:21:48] Taty Fittipaldi: not everybody feel comfortable.

[00:21:50] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah.

[00:21:50] Nazli Alimen: Yes. And, and like, it’s just. Let’s say, like, if they go to a Muslim majority country and people ask them, Oh, so do you eat pork? [00:22:00] Is it okay? No, it’s not okay. it’s not fine to ask someone from a Muslim majority country if they ask. if they, if they eat pork and so on. So they have to, they have to ask themselves, would I be happy?

[00:22:17] Nazli Alimen: Would I, would I feel comfortable to be inquired about this and that? And also give some time, like do not make that person as if they are, they are in a, in a human zoo, you know? So not like an interrogation, right? They’re not like an interrogation. Oh, there is this, there is a different, uh, type of stuff.

[00:22:39] Nazli Alimen: Let’s investigate it. Let’s try it.

[00:22:43] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah. Absolutely. So, you’ve been to many places and most expatriates when they’re going to another place, they usually have to prove themselves, right? So I was wondering if you had ever, you know, suffered any acts of discrimination because of your origin when [00:23:00] you were in another country… how did it work for you?

[00:23:03] Nazli Alimen: Yeah, um, before moving to Birmingham, I’d never had such experiences. Um, Birmingham is totally different environment for me. Although they have ethnic minority communities. Um, they are very, um, unlanded, you know, like there is this Pakistani community, Hindu community, Sikh community, and English people living in English majority towns and so on.

[00:23:36] Nazli Alimen: Um, yeah. And here, the, the thing is, if I didn’t have A high level of academic background because as I arrived here, I had my PhD and I published a book and achievements right on. And none of my team members, uh, does have a PhD or have publications and [00:24:00] so on, so. It was already, but at the same time, I could see that, like, they are English and, and the thing is, my friends also keep telling me, uh, be, be aware they will think they are above you because this is how the education system works here in this country.

[00:24:22] Nazli Alimen: Maybe if I didn’t have this academic background, yes, I would, I would have struggled more, but still, you know, coming from and being non native to this country. speaker. This is another thing, and they are not experienced, even students and even my colleagues. One, one colleague of mine, uh, went to a lecture room later on, two students told me that, and, and they, she asked the students whether they could understand my accent.

[00:24:48] Nazli Alimen: So it’s a very close, yeah, in, in this respect, yes. And, and I do understand why there is this integration [00:25:00] issue and why some minority groups, ethnic groups have too much anger towards the government, towards locals and so on, you know, because like sometimes I would get angry as well and I would feel really bad because of being discriminated, being treated differently and badly, although I have the academic background and I have the professional.

[00:25:30] Nazli Alimen: Yeah, despite that. Oh, yeah. But maybe we need to grow a little bit thick skin. And, yeah, but the best thing is to probably challenge people like if you are feeling bad if something. said made you upset, then it’s better to challenge people. I think what makes you comfortable, what makes you okay to ask me this question or what makes you treat like [00:26:00] me.

[00:26:01] Nazli Alimen: Because I would feel that in team meetings, no one, no one bothered asking me because they already have those connections and so it’s, it’s better to say things out loud or maybe email them. Yeah, but also the institutions have the responsibility, I think, to train their staff members in terms of equality, diversity and inclusion, but also we can, we can We can make them aware.

[00:26:31] Nazli Alimen: Maybe they are not aware what they are, they’re being and still and so on. So it’s better. Would you be happy if you are in a, in a foreign country? And if you are being asked as that, or if you are being treated in this way? Yeah, but we are all human beings. Sometimes, you know, it’s, it comes out as anger.

[00:26:51] Nazli Alimen: Anger or like, you just turn to yourself and question, what am I doing here? ?

[00:26:58] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah. , So, [00:27:00] basically what you’re saying is instead of victimizing yourself and remaining the victim role, basically, speak up and bring to the person’s awareness of what they are causing and how they’re making you feel right.

[00:27:13] Taty Fittipaldi: Sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn’t, but… it’s worth the try. Right?

[00:27:19] Nazli Alimen: Yeah. And also I raised the issue of it. I talked to my, my manager previously and she didn’t seem to understand. So I needed to take this, take a step by myself and try to find a solution and make doing it, uh, make people above her aware of.

[00:27:41] Nazli Alimen: such things going on. It’s not easy, you know, like unconscious bias. Yes. And racism and discrimination, these things do not get eliminated overnight. And we all have unconscious bias. So we just need to reflect on, we [00:28:00] just need to think about, and we need to hear. hear from people. We shouldn’t be, we shouldn’t feel bad if someone is telling us, okay, you told me this, or like, um, you made this gesture.

[00:28:13] Nazli Alimen: However, it means something bad in my culture. So I was wondering what, what does it mean? Is that by ourselves and also informal relationships, informal meetings are very important. And also like, I was, I was reading like pub meetings because not all people are consuming alcohol. It doesn’t mean because of religious.

[00:28:37] Nazli Alimen: Could be something else. Yes, it can be something else. Give people to afford, give the opportunity to meet somewhere else, maybe in a cafe or in a restaurant or just like arrange an eating room and give people to check informally and hear from each other, hear [00:29:00] from their similarities, differences, and so on.

[00:29:04] Nazli Alimen: So this is what I can recommend actually.

[00:29:07] Taty Fittipaldi: Perfect. Sounds, sounds a great recommendation. So you mentioned about you working in Birmingham City University. So tell us, so you’re a scholar, right? So tell us a little bit about your research.

[00:29:20] Nazli Alimen: My research in my PhD, I worked on modest fashion.

[00:29:23] Nazli Alimen: I looked at three faith inspired communities in Turkey and I investigated their clothing practices. I looked at both men and women, and I also investigated men’s facial hair, women’s scarves, different places they tie their scarves, and so on. And later on, I worked on circumcision costumes, because boys circumcision is a big thing in Turkey.

[00:29:52] Nazli Alimen: Girls circumcision is not the case, but boys, yes, and they have to. specific parties and also [00:30:00] special outfits. So I looked at those and recently I’ve been working on Ottoman outerwear. Well, they were, they were worn by both men and women back then, but I’m looking at women’s, uh, outerwear. Um, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s really interesting because the way, you know, all Muslim and non Muslim women wore that outfit, but they were using different colors.

[00:30:28] Nazli Alimen: different fabrics and so on. Different choices, right? Yeah. But there are similarities, differences. It’s very nice. And also doing archival research, looking at historical data. It’s another, uh, dimension, another addition to my research skills. So I’m very happy. This is what I’ve been concentrating on recently.

[00:30:53] Taty Fittipaldi: Wow. That’s awesome. So you have a broad knowledge about fashion. You’ve done bits and pieces here and there. So [00:31:00] a lot of knowledge you must have. So in terms of brand management, imagine this, imagine you have a person who is an expatriate.

[00:31:07] Taty Fittipaldi: He’s he or she is living in another country and they decide to open a business and become an entrepreneur, right? So what types of tips would you have for them? In order To help them with the brand management in a different culture, right? Because sometimes working on a brand in your culture is easy because you know things, you know how to work, but then you go to somewhere else, it’s completely different. People perceive things differently. So, share something, with our audience, about that.

[00:31:40] Nazli Alimen: So I would recommend them to do research.

[00:31:44] Taty Fittipaldi: Research, okay.

[00:31:46] Nazli Alimen: We always tell students to do primary research and secondary research. Primary research will collect data from locals, either online, what they are sharing on Facebook, what they are talking about on Instagram, [00:32:00] what they are interested in, what are the things called in that culture or acceptable or favorable in that culture.

[00:32:07] Nazli Alimen: Hold focus group interviews, one to one interviews, surveys, so these are not really difficult to run. And now like, all that information can be found online you know even like going, go on YouTube and, and even course era, there are so many courses offered for free. So it’s very easy to. reach to access that knowledge.

[00:32:35] Nazli Alimen: Uh, and another thing is secondary search. Like they should read, uh, some credible resources on business area. For example, they can buy, let’s say if they are planning to, uh, develop a business in Brazil, then I’m sure, uh, there are some magazines. Industrial reports, uh, even like [00:33:00] in, in newspaper sense, there must be like branding, advertising, uh, magazines for business people or people who are interested in learning more.

[00:33:11] Nazli Alimen: So they can start with those. And these are the things I can say and pay attention to cultural differences, business differences. They are even covered in, in marketing, management, business textbooks. You know, uh, VA or MA level. So this is what I, what I can recommend them and also pay attention and also doing primary research is paying attention.

[00:33:36] Nazli Alimen: What’s going on around, around us here from your local friends

[00:33:41] Taty Fittipaldi: and focusing on, on preferences, understanding local preferences. And okay.

[00:33:47] Nazli Alimen: What is acceptable? What’s not acceptable, what would sell more, but wouldn’t sell. So it’s, it’s good to see, it’s good to be aware of what’s going on. [00:34:00] And

[00:34:01] Taty Fittipaldi: having focus groups with locals is a great idea because then you start to immerse yourself in the culture too, right?

[00:34:08] Taty Fittipaldi: You can, ask questions and clarify things directly. That’s, that’s an awesome thing.

[00:34:13] Nazli Alimen: And they don’t have to be like, Well designed focus group studies, you know, it can be a group of friends. You go out and talk and like, what do you think? And especially to asking people, let’s say if they are planning to develop a passion brand, then it’s good to ask passion conscious people to see who is more interested in, in passion, investing more, following maybe some influencers on Instagram.

[00:34:43] Nazli Alimen: And they may provide more information or someone interested in, let’s say, wine and you are planning to develop, sell some wine from your home country in, in, in the foreign country you are living in. So it’s good to speak to people who love [00:35:00] wine or who are interested in knowing more about wine, attending wine tastings and so on.

[00:35:06] Nazli Alimen: And it’s also good to speak to people who are, who have some, Specific knowledge in the area you are looking at. So this is what I can recommend.

[00:35:17] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, no, that’s a great tip. And talking about, engaging with people and immersing in the culture. Let’s talk about inclusiveness. So you have a broad view of the world.

[00:35:28] Taty Fittipaldi: You’ve been in many different, very different countries. So in your opinion, What could future global leaders, either, people who are studying today or who are currently global leaders and want to become a better global leader, what do you recommend them to, to become better in cross cultural understanding?

[00:35:52] Nazli Alimen: Um, the thing is they need to go outside of their familiar comfort zones. This is what I noticed. [00:36:00] with my own students. They always, um, socialize with students similar to themselves. Easy for us, you know, someone’s easy. Yeah. Looks similar to you. Someone lives similar to you. But the thing is, they need to go out of their comfort zones and meet people from different ethnic backgrounds, different nationalities, and so on.

[00:36:23] Nazli Alimen: And I think, um, today’s, uh, learning environments, they, they really offer this opportunity to students because there are exchange students or foreign students, so they shouldn’t hesitate. And another thing is because when I was, when I was a student, back then we had those like pen friends, we were writing letters.

[00:36:47] Nazli Alimen: Yes, I had, I had pen friends. But the thing is, things are much easier now, you know.

[00:36:55] Taty Fittipaldi: Nowadays, yeah. You can do a Zoom call with your pen friend. [00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Nazli Alimen: Exactly. And also, you know, like there are so many videos to watch on YouTube, TikTok, some good quality ones. Oh, yeah. And I’m sure they can, they can learn about other cultures and even some documentaries and books available online.

[00:37:21] Nazli Alimen: So there are so many, there are so many. So many resources available on the Internet and they should definitely, this is what I tell young people to do, they should take advantage of such, especially free resources available on the Internet, but they have to be careful whether this information is credible or not.

[00:37:39] Nazli Alimen: Yes, yes. Ted Talks or a famous magazine such as National Geographic, you know. So this is a reliable information. This is what I can recommend them. They should, they need to be open minded and they need, they shouldn’t hesitate because the thing is sometimes people, you know, they [00:38:00] are not sure whether they should say hi and start communicating.

[00:38:04] Nazli Alimen: Yes, they should definitely, definitely do. They shouldn’t, they, they shouldn’t be shy. This is what I noticed in my students, like, although they are gen z’s, um, They use social media. They are so self confident and so on. However, in terms of developing relationships, I cannot say they are really self confident, but it’s important to be self confident.

[00:38:28] Nazli Alimen: You know, that person is just another human being like yourself. and communicate.

[00:38:35] Taty Fittipaldi: True. Yeah. Everybody has their own insecurities, right? So, and they’re not going to bite you. So, it’s always good to go and be curious. Yeah.

[00:38:46] Nazli Alimen: Or like, uh, last year, um, one student of mine said, a black, black student, uh, a white student asked her, like, why, like the student, George Floyd [00:39:00] thing, Black Lives Matter, what’s the difference being a black person in England?

[00:39:04] Nazli Alimen: And I really like that black student’s answer to her. She said, think about you are walking to the university building, uh, during the daylight. But if you’re a black person, it’s the same for you if you are, if you are walking after 10 PM. So you have to be careful. You have to, you have to be aware of what, Threats can come from outside and you have to watch out as well.

[00:39:30] Nazli Alimen: So it was nice, you know, like if you are, if you have such curiosities and also like sitting outside talking to other white people, don’t really, doesn’t really make you understand why these things are going on. So it’s better to communicate with people, ask them what’s going on, what makes you react that way.

[00:39:55] Nazli Alimen: We need to communicate. We need to hear from each other. [00:40:00] So this is

[00:40:00] Taty Fittipaldi: and we we must be more tolerant too, right? Because sometimes our first reaction is to become angry or, um, you know, and sometimes we have to just breathe and say, Okay, so let me clarify what’s going on here And go a one level above in terms of understanding and try to understand what’s going on.

[00:40:22] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, makes makes sense. Makes sense. And listen, you talked about hand gestures, just a moment. And I want, I’m dying to ask you this question. So let me share one gesture that is very common in Brazil. And what does it mean? And then Please share one from Turkey, okay? For example, in Brazil, if you went to someone’s house and, you know, they served you a dish that was very delicious, you might do, that was delicious.

[00:40:52] Taty Fittipaldi: You might use this gesture. That was delicious. Um, so what, what type of hand gesture would [00:41:00] you say you, would you want?

[00:41:02] Nazli Alimen: Holding, holding an ear. Uh, we just made this one and we also have an idiom. Like if you are making things over complicated, like showing your ear like this. instead of that. Otherwise, like, we don’t have anything to do with the ear.

[00:41:19] Nazli Alimen: Maybe in some recipes you can see, like, the dog should be the, this, I don’t know, density. Um, but, like, I sent you one file. Yeah, so

[00:41:32] Taty Fittipaldi: let me share the file

[00:41:33] Nazli Alimen: with

[00:41:33] Taty Fittipaldi: our

[00:41:34] Nazli Alimen: audience. The thing is, I went to Birmingham University’s art gallery, uh, in November 2019, and a friend of mine was visiting me, and I came across that painting, an Italian painting, yes, and my sister told me in, it, it has a Medici meaning, specific meaning, however, in Turkey, this one is quite like a middle finger, [00:42:00] maybe a little bit like, uh, a kinder version of the middle finger, yes.

[00:42:05] Nazli Alimen: I don’t know, maybe a female version of the middle finger. I don’t know.

[00:42:09] Taty Fittipaldi: In this context, is this a bad thing or a good thing?

[00:42:15] Nazli Alimen: It’s not a pleasant thing to show this to people. Okay. So it’s like showing, showing,

[00:42:23] Taty Fittipaldi: so that’s interesting because this, this gesture, um, actually means good luck in Brazil. So you see how, how the same gesture can be different.

[00:42:38] Taty Fittipaldi: I’m

[00:42:38] Nazli Alimen: really interested to know what, what this, This gesture means for the Medici, and yeah, and, and I, and I’m sure there’s a specific meaning, otherwise he shouldn’t be depicted in this painting, doing this gesture, so it must have some meaning, but when I was visiting that art Gallery, I came across this, [00:43:00] and I was laughing, and my friend, uh, wouldn’t understand, she was a Finnish friend of mine visiting me, and I just took photos and sent them on WhatsApp to my, to some of my Turkish friends, and, and yeah, and my sister told me it’s, it’s very common in the Renaissance, uh, Italy.

[00:43:19] Nazli Alimen: to have that gesture. So this is what my sister told me, and I think I should investigate. And another thing, it’s not a hand gesture, but just facial expression. So in, in many countries, I think, no is this, right? But in Turkey, no is either with some noise. Or like you can even move your eyebrows. No. And I remember when I was studying English in the States, one of my teachers, uh, spent a couple of years in Turkey as an exchange student.

[00:43:59] Nazli Alimen: And [00:44:00] later on, she, she returned for a year traveling and so on. So I did this gesture in her. Lecture. So she told me, I do understand what this lecture, what this gesture means in your culture because I lived in Turkey. However, don’t do that because, uh, don’t do that. Uh, try not to do that outside of your country because it doesn’t mean anything in, in many other cultures.

[00:44:30] Nazli Alimen: So now, I think, I think now after years, because it was like, it.

[00:44:40] Nazli Alimen: This when someone is asking me I’m just gonna make a gesture, either than answering them verbally but like this one or. No, I, I, I’m here to do

[00:44:53] Taty Fittipaldi: awesome. That’s super interesting because basically what you’re saying is sometimes we’re so accustomed in doing [00:45:00] certain gestures in our country, but they will mean nothing to the other countries.

[00:45:05] Taty Fittipaldi: And you are not going to communicate yourself in the way that you are expecting. Right. That’s interesting. That’s very, very interesting.

[00:45:14] Nazli Alimen: But the thing is, like, in close cultures, um, especially during the Ottoman Empire, when people, when different nationalities were living together, they were using the same expression.

[00:45:24] Nazli Alimen: For example, if you go to Greece, probably they will understand what they, what it means. And also in Italy, my friends told me, like, it’s very, it’s very, Southern Italian, like, or, like, Southern Italians do that, you know, there’s this North and South division in Italy, and they said, like, also, South, some Southern Italians do that

[00:45:46] Taty Fittipaldi: as well.

[00:45:47] Taty Fittipaldi: Interesting. I didn’t know that. Okay. It looks quite, um. So maybe in the Mediterranean region, right? Maybe, maybe. That’s something in, more in the, in the, in the, interesting. Definitely,

[00:45:59] Nazli Alimen: because we [00:46:00] are talking about globalization as, as an example. It’s a, it’s a, uh, contemporary thing, but globalization existed in centuries ago, people are doing trade in between, sailing, moving around, there were wars, so.

[00:46:15] Nazli Alimen: Yeah, I don’t. I don’t know that.

[00:46:19] Taty Fittipaldi: So, uh, so let me ask you something and you can use this gesture or not. So I am going to show you the card for our card reading session. Do you want it or no? Do you want it? Yes.

[00:46:40] Nazli Alimen: I want it.

[00:46:41] Taty Fittipaldi: Yes. Yes. Let’s do it. So I am going to share the card with you here. I’m going to share my screen.

[00:46:48] Taty Fittipaldi: Let me know if, um, you can read the card and then please read the card out loud to our viewers and then let us know what comes to your mind.

[00:46:59] Nazli Alimen: [00:47:00] Hope. I decide that I’m allowed to be, it’s more like, uh, showing gratitude and trying to draw a positive. positivity, positivity, good vibes to yourself. I decided that I’m allowed to be blessed. I’m in control of my live. I am in control, internal locus of control, not people around me are affecting me and circumstances and situations always favor me through synchronicities, which means I think it’s like by coincidence.

[00:47:33] Nazli Alimen: Um,

[00:47:36] Taty Fittipaldi: what comes to your mind when you read, um,

[00:47:40] Nazli Alimen: the, the one in the middle, the text in the middle circumstances and situations always favor me. I don’t think they always favor me, but the thing is, uh, I, I’m, I, I learned something from every circumstance and situation,

[00:47:54] Taty Fittipaldi: whether

[00:47:54] Nazli Alimen: they favor me [00:48:00] or not, it doesn’t mean if it’s something not, not an, um, pleasant.

[00:48:04] Nazli Alimen: outcome. It doesn’t mean it has some value in my life or it doesn’t contribute to my personal professional development. I just tried to say what didn’t work, what could be done differently, or just like sometimes you dedicate too much time and effort and things just don’t happen as you want them to be.

[00:48:30] Nazli Alimen: Um, so it’s just like life.

[00:48:34] Nazli Alimen: So, so there’s something like I always believe that everything happens for a reason and that everything can be a good thing or a bad thing so

[00:48:46] Taty Fittipaldi: yeah yeah and depends on our perspective too right

[00:48:49] Nazli Alimen: yeah yes and they don’t always have to favor Um, no, I think it’s, it will be very childish to [00:49:00] expect that, you know, always favor me like a spoiled child, always favor me, always get presents, always hear nice things, always have good outcomes.

[00:49:12] Nazli Alimen: No. Yes, and yes, yeah, I have internal locus of control.

[00:49:20] Taty Fittipaldi: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Nazli. I really appreciate it. And just for those who are new to the show, let me just say that, this is a card deck that Coaching Expatriates sell and basically it’s part of a program to help people exercise their resilience by doing this exercise of thinking about different perspectives and how you can feel more in control of your life.

[00:49:44] Taty Fittipaldi: So Nazli, thank you so much for giving your perspective and thank you so much for being in my show here today. I really appreciate you being here. I appreciate your time, your perspectives, all the tips that you gave. Thank you so much.

[00:49:58] Nazli Alimen: Thank you. Thank you very much for this [00:50:00] opportunity. I really had time to reflect on my experience, uh, what happened and also, and also this card, you know, sometimes we need to stop to think what’s going on, you know, how we are feeling like, how we are, what we are thinking, and so on. This really has given me this opportunity, and thank you very much. And it’s been a great opportunity to get to know you. Thank you. Thank you. I have, I have, I have another Brazilian friend. Yeah, and hopefully we will meet somewhere one day.

[00:50:37] Taty Fittipaldi: True, hopefully we will meet in person. Yeah, in person. And exchange more hand gestures about each other.

[00:50:47] Nazli Alimen: Yeah, probably.

[00:50:48] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, so much for being here. Thank you.

[00:50:53] Nazli Alimen: Thank you, Tatiana.

[00:50:54]

[00:50:55] HIGHLIGHTS

[00:50:55] Taty Fittipaldi: This brings us to the end of this Leadership Nest episode. I [00:51:00] trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your decisions and performance in critical global leadership roles and situations. Stay tuned for a next joy ride with expatriates interview! We promise to surprise you with new stories and concepts to help you learn more about international relocation, acclimation and cultural integrations.

[00:51:22] Taty Fittipaldi: Wherever you are in the globe, this is Taty Fittipaldi wishing you a beautiful day.

[00:51:28] Taty Fittipaldi: If you have any questions, you’d like us to answer in a future episode of this show, just go to speakpipe.com/tatyfittipaldi or click the link in the show notes, to leave us a brief audio message.

[00:51:46] Taty Fittipaldi: Make sure to visit us on our website www.theleadershipnest.com, where you can subscribe to our show anywhere podcasts are streamed, so you never miss the fun.

[00:51:59] Taty Fittipaldi: [00:52:00] While there, if you find value in our show, you can also subscribe to our global leadership weekly newsletter from Coaching Expatriates®, where we deliver bite-sized lessons on global leadership, decision-making, and cultural competence to help you learn how to think, relate and strategize in a whole different way as a global leader.

[00:52:21] Taty Fittipaldi: If you liked our show, you might want to check her online global executive leadership program. A nine week leadership development and learning system, that will help you lead internationally while making financially conscious and impactful business decisions.

[00:52:36] Taty Fittipaldi: Taty Fittipaldi is also available for private coaching. See the websites for more details at www.coachingexpatriates.com/executive-coaching.

[00:52:49] Taty Fittipaldi: Thanks for joining us this week on The Leadership Nest podcast. I trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your performance in critical [00:53:00] global leadership roles and situations.

[00:53:02]