S2 EP014 | Joyride With Expatriates – What China, Singapore And Canada Have In Common?

[00:00:00] INTRODUCTION

[00:00:00]

[00:00:05] Taty Fittipaldi: Hello and welcome to The Leadership Nest podcast. This is season two of the global leadership podcast that combines stories, knowledge and science to soar the leadership in you. I’m your host Taty Fittipaldi. During this season, we invited 20 different expatriates from around the world to share their stories, their learning journeys, and their tips to make you a better leader and an inspired person. You can also watch the live interviews on our YouTube channel! Search for Coaching Expatriates® channel, then select the playlist called Joyride With Expatriates.

[00:00:43] Taty Fittipaldi: In today’s episode, We will talk with Dan Beach, who was born in Canada and had the opportunity to live many years in China and Singapore. Here is his story.

[00:00:56] JOYRIDE WITH AN EXPATRIATE

(This section’s transcript was AI-generated and may contain errors)

[00:00:56] Taty Fittipaldi: Hey Dan, welcome to the [00:01:00] show. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you.

[00:01:03] Dan Beach: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:04] Taty Fittipaldi: Dan, let, how about we start by you telling us where you come from and maybe tell us about where have you gone to, which countries you have been expatriated to and tell us what you miss in those places, and what you don’t miss in those places.

[00:01:21] Dan Beach: Sure. So I’m originally from Canada, Ottawa, Canada. Um, and so, uh, I left Canada about 18 years ago now. Um, so I spent about 16 years in China, in Shenzhen, um, and, uh, moved with my daughter to Singapore, where we are now.

[00:01:41] Dan Beach: Um, and, uh, what, what do I miss? Uh, well, Canada, I mean, uh, I would say. friends, family, food, um, all the, all the Fs. Um, uh, you know, as, as well as other things like, uh, sport and, you know, miss watching a hockey game or, um, another thing [00:02:00] is, uh, like concerts and things of that nature, you know, we’re, we’re kind of on tap whenever you want it.

[00:02:05] Dan Beach: If you wanted to see Metallica live, uh, they would typically come around once every one or two years. Um, so, so I do miss that, although I did get to see Metallica in Hong Kong once. China, um, yeah, I miss, I miss the speed. I miss the spontaneity, um, the, the food as well. Although there are some really great Chinese restaurants here in Singapore, it is, it is actually surprisingly difficult to find the same level of, uh, variety.

[00:02:32] Dan Beach: Let’s say, uh, well, China, China has. You know, hundreds of different kinds of food. You know, there isn’t just one, uh, Chinese food, um, so defined, uh, you know, the, the, the same sort of variety is, is quite difficult here in Singapore. Um, but, you know, China, China’s moving in a, in a direction, um, that, that’s a little bit different from what I was used to, uh, during my stay there.

[00:02:57] Dan Beach: Um, and that is, you know, uh, much more [00:03:00] control, uh, from the government. And, uh, it’s, it’s, uh, not. Not moving toward a more open society, but more of a, you know, uh, let’s, let’s protect the downside. Let’s make sure that, you know, uh, we keep what we have as opposed to, you know, uh, during, during my stay was all about, you know, learn the new thing, eat the new food.

[00:03:21] Dan Beach: You know, what are they doing in France? What are they doing in the U S how, how can we do that? No. Um, and you still have some of that. Uh, and I think a lot of people are still interested in, in, um, learning about the world. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, but, but from a government level, it’s, it’s more about, okay, well that’s, that’s maybe enough for us at this point.

[00:03:42] Dan Beach: That’s, that’s probably too much. And of course you’ve got, uh, the U S and China not really being on the best of terms at the moment. So, um, yeah, there’s also the element that, you know, uh, Shenzhen in particular is quite a transient place. So people come and go quite often. Um, and so for my little one, [00:04:00] my daughter, um, what I wanted was a little bit more stability, um, and, and Singapore offers that.

[00:04:06] Taty Fittipaldi: In terms of a relationship, you mean?

[00:04:08] Dan Beach: Yeah, to have a place to call home, have friends, like lifelong friends that she’ll know forever, you know, even after she goes off to uni, that she’ll have a place to come back to. And when, when we were thinking about moving, Over, you know, we’re thinking about a few places, you know, Hong Kong was one.

[00:04:26] Dan Beach: Um, but at the time, Hong Kong was kind of on fire, um, with the protests and whatnot. So I thought maybe that’s not the best spot. Australia was another option. Very close contender. Um, and home, of course, Canada was was another option. Um, but for me, um, Canada is just a little bit too far away from the action.

[00:04:49] Dan Beach: Um, I still do feel very much like, uh, a lot of the growth that’s going to happen in the next 30 40 years is going to come out of Asia. Um, all of my experiences. [00:05:00] is in Asia. Um, I think a lot of what I’ve learned is applicable elsewhere, but, um, where I think we are probably the best place to see that growth happen is, I mean, certainly in Southeast Asia, there’s, you know, half a billion people here, um, that are on the same sort of track.

[00:05:16] Dan Beach: Yeah. The same sort of a track that China was on or is on. Um, and so, uh, it’s going to be a really interesting, um, you know, next, next. Part of my career, let’s say, um, because I do feel like a lot of that economic activity is going to be, uh, out of Singapore, in fact, because this is sort of the heart of the Southeast Asian economy.

[00:05:39] Dan Beach: Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, just keeping on the same track. I mean, Singapore, um, is, uh, really stable, super stable. Too stable . Um, so you, yeah, you, you, you do miss the spontaneity sometimes. Um, where, [00:06:00] you know, in, in China, it’s, uh, what do you do it? Um, okay, well let’s, let’s go do something, uh, there. And then here it’s like, what are you doing in three weeks?

[00:06:08] Dan Beach: You know, let’s put it in the calendar.

[00:06:09] Taty Fittipaldi: So, so they’re more so in Singapore they sort of plan more, and in China they’re more like, oh, let’s, you know, let’s do something.

[00:06:18] Dan Beach: It’s yeah, it’s

[00:06:20] Taty Fittipaldi: interesting.

[00:06:21] Dan Beach: And sometimes for some people that can be quite frustrating, right? It’s like, uh, let’s have a meeting. Okay, when?

[00:06:27] Dan Beach: Who? Uh, now everybody. Um, that’s, that’s sort of the China model. Uh, we’re, we’re here. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s obviously very specific. Um, you know, we’re planning this meeting at a couple of weeks in advance. Here’s a few spots. Um, and it’s just, it’s just a different mindset. And, and, you know, that ability to react and move quickly is, is why China’s moving at the pace that it is.

[00:06:49] Dan Beach: Um, but it also means that it’s tireless, right? Like you are always on. Um, and so you, you really cannot stop and you can’t be switched off. [00:07:00] Right. Um, so your, your WeChat is on all the time. It’s used for friends. It’s used for work. Um, and you know, if, if I need something, um, you know, I, I can ask for it at really any point.

[00:07:12] Dan Beach: There’s no, there’s no sense of like, oh, it’s 7 30. I probably shouldn’t text them. Um, it’s like, no, no, it’s like 10 o’clock. What are you doing?

[00:07:23] Taty Fittipaldi: The entire Asia, or just. China and Singapore. It’s like a, it’s a, like a cultural thing to be on, you know.

[00:07:31] Dan Beach: No, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, I would never paint all of Asia with the same broad brush.

[00:07:35] Dan Beach: Um, you know, uh, Japan is different from Korea’s China is different from Singapore is different from, you know, the Philippines or Indonesia. Um, Singapore in particular, uh, I would say is more like Japan, where things are very well organized. Everybody’s on time. Um, you know, things happen when and as they should.

[00:07:56] Dan Beach: Um, whereas in China, it’s as [00:08:00] fast as possible. Everything is as fast as possible. Um, and so that’s kind of a moving goalpost, right? Because sometimes it’s faster, sometimes it’s slower. Um, but because everybody’s always on. Things do happen remarkably quickly, right? And everybody’s like, like ready to react.

[00:08:18] Dan Beach: It’s interesting if you look at the way that people, people drive in China, you don’t see very many accidents. And even though oftentimes, you know, people can drive a little Crazy. Um, but because everybody is aware of like ready for somebody to do something silly. Um, and, and so it’s, it’s reactive. Um, and in that same kind of vein, everybody at work is, is quite reactive.

[00:08:42] Dan Beach: You know, they’re, they’re, they’re ready to respond to whatever that stimuli is and, and, and, uh, you know, get something done. Um, this is not to say that China doesn’t plan. Of course it does. China is. You know, a planned economy. So there’s tons of planning that goes on even in longer terms than, you know, you would [00:09:00] expect that of the U S or elsewhere in five year slots.

[00:09:02] Dan Beach: And they do it to a remarkable effect, right? They often achieve the goals that they set out in those plans. It’s just that, and so that’s at the macro level. Yeah. That’s at the macro level, but at the micro level, especially in private enterprise, like if you’re a startup and this is where that, um, nine, nine, six culture comes in.

[00:09:22] Dan Beach: So nine, uh, nine, nine, six basically speaks to a, basically, you know, a full week of work. Like you don’t stop. Um, you know, so in, in, in that sense, because you’re always working, you’re always able to pick up on both threats and opportunities. Right. So, um, in, in, in a way where if, if you’re up against say an international firm, who is, you know, working nine to five.

[00:09:51] Dan Beach: Yeah. Um, you’re, you’re way more competitive. Not, not because you have the best ideas necessarily, but because you’re always on,

[00:09:59] Taty Fittipaldi: [00:10:00] You can react faster to everything, right? And be the first and be the first.

[00:10:04] Dan Beach: Exactly. And you, and you have the entire compliment of cast to, to actually get that done. It’s not like you have the founders at the.

[00:10:11] Dan Beach: Uh, you know, the Western firm that’s working, you know, uh, like, uh, Elon Musk, for example, um, it’s everybody is working at that pace. So you have the entire graph of everybody inside of the organization kind of ready at a moment’s notice to, to drive that new initiative forward, to react to that bad PR, uh, that’s come up to, to do whatever is necessary in order to make the company successful.

[00:10:36] Dan Beach: Um, and this even happens at, you know, your large, you know, now multinational firms like your Alibaba’s and Baidu’s. It’s, it’s, it’s getting, I think, to a point where it’s frowned upon because it’s, it’s almost an excuse to not be efficient. It’s just like, well, if everybody’s working, what do I care? You know, what, what, you know, people spend their time on.

[00:10:55] Dan Beach: Um, but ultimately, you know, that is what is making, uh, [00:11:00] China as successful it is, or at least a part of it in the, say, software space. Um, so it’s quite, it’s quite interesting, you know, uh, how that dynamic plays out. Um, and you don’t really see the same thing here in Singapore. People are still hungry, uh, even in the startup space, but, um, it’s not with the same sort of a vigor, like there is a kind of palpable sense that time is running out in China.

[00:11:23] Dan Beach: Like we need to do it now. Like, if we don’t do it now, we’re going to lose. Um, And then there won’t be anything to be had.

[00:11:30] Taty Fittipaldi: So sense of urgency in China is bigger than in Singapore. If you were, would compare both, you would say that in China, they see this sense of urgency.

[00:11:39] Dan Beach: Yeah. Well, because you, you, it kind of relates to the, the Chinese dream.

[00:11:44] Dan Beach: You know, relative or juxtaposed against the American dream, which was the same thing, right? Like you, you can get rich and have a great life if you work really, really hard. Um, and I’d say in some senses that has faded in America where, um, you know, [00:12:00] I’m not sure that everybody believes that if you work super, super hard that you’re going to, you know, achieve great things.

[00:12:07] Dan Beach: Yeah. Um, well, while I still think it’s, it’s largely true, um, It’s just maybe some people don’t want to work quite that hard, but in China, it’s, it’s, they, they have really come from, you know, nothing, um, where actually making money was illegal. Like, you know, earning, earning a private salary that wasn’t sort of government mandated out of the planned economy, um, was, was not.

[00:12:38] Dan Beach: It had to be whatever the government told you and you got paid whatever the government mandated for that particular service or where, um, and only in the past 40 years has, has anybody really been able to make money and make as much money as possible? Um, and, and so that’s, that’s quite remarkable, right?

[00:12:55] Dan Beach: Um, to, to go from, you know, One sorry to zero to [00:13:00] from zero rather to one. Um, and so for a lot of people in China, I feel like this is like an amazing opportunity. Let’s you know, go get it. Get after it while the getting is good. Um, you know, and all that low hanging fruit is kind of is kind of gone, right?

[00:13:15] Dan Beach: Like everything that’s that’s infrastructure based or everything that is, um, you know, real estate, hard asset based, like that’s all kind of done. Like if you’re not in yet, you’re not in. So what’s left? Well, innovation, right? That’s where you can still win. Um, because money can’t buy ideas yet. Um, or money does buy ideas just that you can come up with ideas because they’re not locked in and they’re not finite.

[00:13:40] Taty Fittipaldi: Um, when you say innovation, you mean like new patents, this kind of thing.

[00:13:45] Dan Beach: Um, new patents, new ideas, new software companies, um, or even, you know, Western ideas executed well in China. Um, that, that, that, that’s something that’s very popular, right? Um, everybody talks about, you know, China copying everything.

[00:13:59] Dan Beach: Yes, they do. [00:14:00] This is true. And I think even China, you know, and Chinese entrepreneurs would admit this. Um, you know, there’s something called Shanzhai, uh, which is to, to, uh, it’s like, like, Kind of pirate. Um, but but innovate. Um, there’s there’s like a culture. It started in the hardware space, but it’s since moved on to the software space as well.

[00:14:20] Dan Beach: When you’re taking an existing idea, but you’re innovating on top of it. Um, so a lot of people in China, I would argue, um, you know, they make they make copy as a start, but they make it better. Uh, in a, in a Chinese context. Um, and, and often it is very much for a Chinese context, right? Um, you, you could argue that, you know, WeChat sort of copied Facebook.

[00:14:43] Dan Beach: Um, but now it actually in a, in a weird sense, after WeChat has, you know, out innovated, um, Facebook in many ways with the

[00:14:53] Taty Fittipaldi: copy back .

[00:14:54] Dan Beach: Yeah. It, now, now, now Facebook is copying everything that WeChat’s done, right? Um, so, you [00:15:00] know, WeChat. Started out of a company called Tencent, who initially was actually sued by ICQ, which is a messenger around the

[00:15:10] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, I remember that!

[00:15:11] Dan Beach: You remember, yeah? Okay, you’re aging yourself there a little bit, yeah? So, so, yeah, I remember ICQ as well. Um, and so they basically copied it, you know, like for like, um, so they got sued. They changed the name to QQ. Uh, and then QQ, I think by around 2010, 2012 had about 800 million users. That is absolutely massive.

[00:15:31] Dan Beach: Um, but also at one of their, uh, one of their spinoffs was, was WeChat and WeChat was a standalone mobile messenger. Um, whose initial intent was just to, you know, message friends and family, like you would do on, on QQ or WhatsApp or what have you. Um, But then they started adding really neat features, right?

[00:15:51] Dan Beach: They added like a newsfeed. Um, the, the big one they added was a payment feature. So a digital wallet, which, um, was. [00:16:00] Really to compete with, uh, Alipay, um, which is owned by Alibaba. Um, but what you got as a result of mixing these, these different sorts of things was a kind of a confident innovation where now you could buy things in chat.

[00:16:14] Dan Beach: Now you could buy things, um, in, in a social context, which hadn’t really been possible before. And I don’t think anybody had done it up until now.

[00:16:22] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:16:23] Dan Beach: And so now you can buy absolutely everything on WeChat. That’s interesting. Yeah, and the ability to scan QR codes as well is very, very interesting because QR codes elsewhere in the world have been shown like, oh, that’s tacky.

[00:16:35] Dan Beach: I don’t really like that. But in China, they are absolutely everywhere. Um, and what you do when you slap a QR code on something is you make it smart. So all of a sudden, you know, that, uh, that restaurant has a bunch of data behind it that I can scan. And now I’m a part of that, that data ecosystem. I can pay, I can see the menu.

[00:16:54] Dan Beach: I can do many different things. Right. Um, but, but also you had startups that came up [00:17:00] as off the back of that, like MoBike, um, who, if you scan the. The bike, it would unlock it and then all of a sudden you can ride it. They would track how long you rid it for, rode it for rather rid it,

[00:17:12] Taty Fittipaldi: and maybe they can even charge you.

[00:17:13] Taty Fittipaldi: They, they, they know the distance and they

[00:17:15] Dan Beach: did, and they did. And that,

[00:17:17] Taty Fittipaldi: oh,

[00:17:17] Dan Beach: and that in a heartbeat was, you saw millions of bikes across China parked everywhere. It was a mess. It was a total mess, but it spoke to the power of what, what happens when you take all of these little. Niche innovations and you slap them together in a, in a, in a good sort of user experience.

[00:17:33] Dan Beach: Um, what, what can come out of that? Well, you know, billions and billions and billions of dollars of value. Um, and, and amazing user experience. And now it’s to the point where like, because I can now just scan a QR code pay, I can send, uh, money to friends in an instant. Like there’s no barrier. There’s no like two fa or, or like, uh, security lock, um, ’cause.

[00:17:56] Dan Beach: It’s, it’s, it’s all just made very, very easy inside of the app. Um, [00:18:00] so I can send you money in a, in a heartbeat. Well, nobody uses cash anymore. Like China is, is the first cashless society in the world. Um, and all because of this little company. Yeah, this, this little company that, that got sued by, uh, ICQ for copying, you know, uh, this original app, but then they, they innovated, but now, now 10 cents, like, I don’t know what the, the market value is right now, but it’s anywhere between 500 billion and a trillion dollars worth of value that’s been created out of that.

[00:18:32] Dan Beach: Um, and so, and so that’s, that’s kind of the model and that, that company is very much your, your client. Do anything, whatever it takes, get there, just do it, um, innovator else kind of thing. Um, and it’s, it’s really fascinating to, to have seen that, um, because yeah, that, that company came up in sort of the same period that I was in China for, um, and is, is now one of the largest companies in China.

[00:18:55] Dan Beach: It’s, it’s really, really interesting.

[00:18:56] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s fascinating. And so since you already [00:19:00] introduced a little bit about that, I have a question, most Westerns think that all on Asia countries are kind of the same, right? They have this mindset now. Oh, their culture are kind of the same.

[00:19:11] Taty Fittipaldi: And, and it’s usually something that happens also in Latin America, in Europe, people saying, Oh, it’s, It’s kind of the same, right? So let’s, let’s make, let’s break their paradigm here. And, besides the sense of urgency, what else do you think Singapore and China have different?

[00:19:33] Dan Beach: Oh, vast amounts. Um, I mean, China is, is itself, uh, really, really Diverse and dynamic.

[00:19:42] Dan Beach: Um, I mean, yes, you do have predominantly, uh, Han Chinese, um, very sort of homogeneous, uh, society, but even, um, within, say, just just take, for example, food, um, all very, very different across the provinces. [00:20:00] Uh, languages. Also, there isn’t one Chinese language. I’m, I’m not sure what the actual number is, but it’s got to be in the hundreds of different Chinese languages.

[00:20:09] Dan Beach: Um, everybody speaks Mandarin, right? Um, because that is the statement dated language. The

[00:20:15] Taty Fittipaldi: official language, I see. Yeah.

[00:20:16] Dan Beach: Um, but that only really happened, um, after Mao Zedong, uh, You know, made it happen. Um, up until that point, I mean, even, you know, people in Shanghai have, you know, would speak the Shanghai dialect wouldn’t be able to speak to someone from Guangdong who speak Cantonese.

[00:20:35] Dan Beach: They sometimes would even speak in English, you know, if they didn’t both speak Mandarin. Uh, now, of course, that’s quite different. Uh, everybody speaks Mandarin, at least to some degree. Um, and it is to varying degrees. Some people speak really great Mandarin, if they’re from the north. Uh, you know, people from the south and certainly Hong Kong are sometimes made fun of for the way that they make, uh, they, they speak Mandarin, because it’s, it’s with a heavy, heavy accent.

[00:20:59] Dan Beach: [00:21:00] Um, but, uh, yeah. So that, that I think did a good job of unifying China in some ways. Um, because, yeah. Of course, if you if you all speak different languages, it’s much like Europe. Um, it’s difficult to to do trade and business and make friends, etc. Um, and so yeah, China is very interesting. And of course, you’ve got, you know, political dynamic.

[00:21:23] Dan Beach: Um, that is very different. Um, I would suppose the irony in comparing these two countries is that I feel like a lot of what Lee Kuan Yew did, um, to modernize Singapore and make Singapore the sort of bastion of capitalism that it is today, uh, was copied, um, by, um, Deng Xiaoping who kind of led China out of the, you know, pure ideological version of communism that China had under Mao and actually moved them toward more of a market economy.[00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Dan Beach: And so when he came up with Shenzhen, which is where I was, I think a lot of that was based on Singapore. Um, and what Singapore had been doing, um, where it’s, you know, Shenzhen was set up to really test the capitalist idea and whether it worked, um, you know, in, in, in the Chinese, uh, economy. Um, so it was called a special economic zone.

[00:22:27] Dan Beach: Uh, it was set up specifically next to Hong Kong, um, in order to. benefit from, uh, you know, the amount of trade, capital, et cetera, that could come from Hong Kong. Um, and really was a model for the rest of the country. So anytime there’s a new, um, economic idea, it’s always tested in Shenzhen first. Um, and since then, you’ve got a few other, uh, special economic zones like, uh, Shanghai and, uh, even Zhuhai, which is right next door across from Macau.

[00:22:58] Dan Beach: Um, but, [00:23:00] but the whole idea is, okay, well, as opposed to trying to change, you know, a country at one point, yeah, at one point, you know, uh, whatever billion people at the time.

[00:23:09] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s pretty smart. Yeah,

[00:23:11] Dan Beach: it’s pretty smart. Yeah, that was very wise.

[00:23:13] Taty Fittipaldi: It’s like we do in, in the private sector, we do pilots, right?

[00:23:17] Dan Beach: Exactly. So, so they literally piloted a city. So there was nothing there, and then there was something there and Shenzhen is now like going to the future. Um, it is, it is a, you know, Metropolis of somewhere in the region of 20 million people. Um, you know, economy is now bigger than Hong Kong, which is remarkable given the fact that it started from zero.

[00:23:38] Dan Beach: Um, and has, Like world beating firms in every industry from, you know, finance to software manufacturing, um, biotech, like you name it, Shenzhen has it because of course, every time they want to test something new, it goes there. Right. Um, and so, yeah, [00:24:00] and as a result, you’ve got all of these amazing overlaps and technology and capability and business and know how, um, that, that Create sort of new things that wouldn’t otherwise exist.

[00:24:11] Dan Beach: Kind of one plus one equals three. Um, so the value that gets generated at Shenzhen is absolutely fascinating. Um, now, Singapore is, yeah, if what if you had a Shenzhen, but you didn’t have a, you know, a China behind it? Um, what would that look like? And that’s exactly what you have here. Extremely good governance.

[00:24:31] Dan Beach: Um, and, you know, Singapore doesn’t have as much leeway to make mistakes because, you know, you’ve got a 700 square kilometer island. Um, you need to keep it tight. You need to do things really, really well. Um, and really, really efficient, efficiently. Um, and so ultimately that’s the way that, that Singapore, uh, is governed.

[00:24:53] Dan Beach: Um, but also being very open to To capitalism to trade, um, has, has meant that, [00:25:00] yeah, you know, many of the world’s biggest firms, when they’re thinking about where to move their business, um, or, or put their headquarters in Asia, it’s right here. Because, you know, you know, your, your IP is going to be safe.

[00:25:13] Dan Beach: You’re going to be able to hire great people. Um, you’re, you’re really going to be able to, um, make a go of, of Asia here. The, the, the. Lee Kuan Yew made a conscious decision to make English the kind of lingua franca. Um, so everyone in, yeah, everyone in Singapore speaks, uh, English to a very high level.

[00:25:32] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s smart. That’s pretty smart.

[00:25:35] Dan Beach: Yeah. Um, but at the same time, they’ll many people also speak Mandarin. Right. Um, so

[00:25:41] Taty Fittipaldi: because it’s so next door that that it’s useful. Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:44] Dan Beach: Yeah. Um, so, so there’s Singapore is, you know, a land for the times it’s it’s it’s really designed to be, um, It’s run like a company.

[00:25:56] Dan Beach: Honestly, it’s run like a very well run company.

[00:25:59] Taty Fittipaldi: And you mentioned [00:26:00] something fascinating. You mentioned that the president earns like a CEO, right? That, that sounded fascinating.

[00:26:06] Dan Beach: Yeah, that’s another thing. Yeah, so it’s just another good example. So that, you know, the, the president and cabinet ministers and, and, uh, everybody, everyone in the government, um, earns a very high salary.

[00:26:19] Dan Beach: Um, because you are competing for talent with the private sector. Um, and as, as opposed to, you know, have them looking for that revolving door, where, where in the private sector can I go after this to earn the big bucks? Rather it’s, let me do a really good job, um, in my role here because that’s what I’m paid to do.

[00:26:38] Dan Beach: Um, you know, so something I think that other governments could potentially learn from. Uh, so, yeah, if you want great people in government, pay them, pay great people salaries, really. Yeah, um, and China could learn from this as well, because frankly, there’s still a lot of corruption in China that happens as a result of people making very, very poor [00:27:00] salaries.

[00:27:00] Dan Beach: Um, but yeah, I’m not sure what the appetite for that looks like in the Chinese Communist Party.

[00:27:06] Taty Fittipaldi: Especially because it’s communist, right? So, so I don’t know how that would work, right?

[00:27:14] Dan Beach: China, China really doesn’t have any of the characteristics of a, of a communist nation, uh, anymore. China, if anything, China is probably the more Most purely capitalist country of their size in the world.

[00:27:27] Dan Beach: Um, so even more so, I feel, then, uh, the U. S. In many ways. Um, there are there are some limitations, of course, with regard to how one operates, but that has mostly to do with the government’s focus of control than it does, you know, actual business outcomes. Um, you know, and even even recently with the way that they have worked with, uh, or In dealing with, uh, companies like DD Dacha, who is the Uber equivalent in China, [00:28:00] uh, or, uh, Alibaba and their most recent IPO, um, it’s, it’s not been, uh, it’s not been with a soft velvety glove, uh, you know, the way that, uh, Business often is treated in the US.

[00:28:14] Dan Beach: Um, it’s, it’s been very harsh, uh, and irrespective of the actual business outcomes. And I mean, we’re talking tens of billions of dollars wiped out, um, in, in value for shareholders. Um, but, but the government still, you know, gave them a slap and said, uh, no, you’re not, you’re not doing the way things should be.

[00:28:35] Dan Beach: You’re not doing things the way, uh, that things should be done, um, or that we think they should be done. And, uh, as a result, here you go, um, we’re going to investigate you for whatever data privacy or what have you. Um, but I mean, yeah, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s sort of the The way that China’s come up is, is with the whatever works model.

[00:28:56] Dan Beach: It isn’t ideological at all.

[00:28:59] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, makes [00:29:00] sense. Maybe, the scholars will coin another term for the way they, they govern things, right? Right now, they still call this communist, but I, I, I totally hear you. It, it doesn’t make any more sense to, to say that this is really communist in the traditional sense.

[00:29:16] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, makes, makes sense. And Dan, tell me something. So you’ve been to these two places that although they’re close, they’re very different. Tell us what were your biggest challenges, both in China and Singapore, when you came, when you first came, what were the biggest challenges you faced, in terms of cultural adaptation?

[00:29:38] Dan Beach: Yeah. Um, so China, yeah. When I, when I went there was in 2003 and China wasn’t nearly as developed as, as it is now. Um, so there were a lot of things to get used to. Um, language was a big one, of course, as, as it is with, with any new, new country that [00:30:00] isn’t speaking your language. So, and, and I mean, Chinese in particular is just not the easiest language for, um, I think Westerners to get.

[00:30:10] Dan Beach: So that took a couple minutes. Um, but then also just, just kind of getting used to the lack of norms. Um, so China at the time did not have, uh, a lot of like really well ingrained, um, social practices. So, you know, things like lining up. when you’re at the KFC. Um, that, that wasn’t a, that wasn’t a thing. You just go to the front of the queue.

[00:30:34] Dan Beach: Um, and the queue would look more like a A wide triangle of people trying to get the attention of

[00:30:41] Taty Fittipaldi: that sounds like a Brazilian line too.

[00:30:44] Dan Beach: Yeah. Uh, and that was really weird because here I would be just standing in line, getting increasingly frustrated and not actually being served. Um, and so that took a long time to get used to.

[00:30:54] Dan Beach: And then eventually, you know, over time, the queue has formed, uh, you know, everywhere because, you know, [00:31:00] for the longest time, you know, it was whoever gets, you know, The thing first gets the thing first. I don’t care if you’re being polite and standing in a queue. Um, it’s, it’s just get whatever you can get now, um, because there’s probably not gonna be We’re gonna run out of food, man.

[00:31:15] Dan Beach: Uh, we’re gonna Or tickets for the hospital or whatever else. Like It, you know, that’s, it was a very new notion at the time anyway. Um, and a lot of the folks that had come that were in Shenzhen had never, you know, been in a big city. They were from the countryside and, um, it was very much a get what you can get now attitude.

[00:31:33] Dan Beach: So that, that took some, some getting used to, um, being, being away from home was probably the other biggest one. Um, you know, just, just being away. Being somewhat lonely, um, you know, at least for the first little while. And then, um, food, yeah, food, food’s huge. Um, Chinese food is very, very different from what I’m used to, uh, or what I was used to at the time now.

[00:31:58] Dan Beach: I absolutely love it. Um, [00:32:00]

[00:32:00] Taty Fittipaldi: Food is huge for everyone. I, I’ve never heard someone saying that, you know, food is not, it’s not one of the key, you know, adaptation issues.

[00:32:09] Dan Beach: Yeah. Uh, getting, getting around in China. That was interesting. Um, at the time you had, so there’s a few modes of trans transportation. You had, um, taxis, which were pretty crazy, but you had to tell the taxi driver where to go, um, which is really hard, uh, in, in Mandarin.

[00:32:27] Dan Beach: Uh, so I mean, you could write it down, but you know, it’s not very efficient if you a, don’t write B, need to get somebody else to do it. Um, or you could take, um. Normal bus, and those are fine, standard normal bus, uh, or a minibus, and minibus is like an in between, um, a, a, oh, you also had like a motor taxi, but those were dangerous to tell, and I didn’t want to take those.

[00:32:51] Dan Beach: Um, those guys are crazy. Um, so are the minibuses, though. So the minibuses are the most fun, I would say, because they didn’t care. They would like, so [00:33:00] there would be a red light, and because they’d begun installing the cameras at the red light, they would drive on the sidewalk, go around the other lane, and then merge back into traffic so that they would miss the red light.

[00:33:15] Dan Beach: Um, because they, you know, they get paid based on how much, you know, how many passengers they can get, not on a time basis, literally volume, right? So, and, and the other thing is they would pack the bus so much, like they didn’t care. If you could fit on the bus, you can get on the bus. And fitting, fitting on the bus in, in a Western context for me would mean you’ve got enough seats.

[00:33:36] Dan Beach: No, no, no. This is literally how many people you can actually get in the bus. Um, which is more like, like a, like a clown car. It’s like a circus of, you know, people and people need to get to work. Right. And, and maybe the other bus is not an accident. So there’s not been one in 10 minutes. It’s like, well, shit, I guess I’m getting on this bus now.

[00:33:53] Dan Beach: Um, and so at that point, because the bus is so full and they don’t really stop, uh, at the bus stops. [00:34:00] So you like, you have to come out. jumped out the window. Um, and, and so, so yeah, I have, I’ve jumped out of the windows of several mini buses in order to get out because he kind of like he take he doesn’t stop so much as he takes his foot off the gas and the bus is still kind of rolling.

[00:34:20] Dan Beach: So you’re just like you’re doing You’re doing a sort of, uh, a barrel roll at the bus, um, trying not to break your ankle.

[00:34:28] Taty Fittipaldi: Or get in the office and kind of, you know, neat yourself up again because you’re, you’re a mess.

[00:34:34] Dan Beach: Yeah. So, so luckily they, they, uh, they banned those in Shenzhen, in addition to the motorcycle taxis, because those guys were nuts.

[00:34:43] Dan Beach: Um, And, uh, yeah, so now you only have like taxis of a certain level and, uh, most of those are electric. I mean, those, those, uh, minibuses were like spewing black crud out of the, out of their exhaust. [00:35:00] So, I mean, it’s changed quite a lot. Right. Um, it’s, it’s quite amazing.

[00:35:05] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s super interesting. I was cracking up, but I was trying not to crack up, but I couldn’t resist.

[00:35:11] So Dan, you have a lot of marketing experience. You have, I don’t know, so many years that I, I lost count, going through your LinkedIn. So what could be some tips you could give to entrepreneurs that went to another country and have to start from scratch as an entrepreneur.

[00:35:32] Taty Fittipaldi: What are some marketing tips you could give, um, to these guys?

[00:35:36] Dan Beach: Sure. Uh, I would say it’s the same as anywhere else. Um, it, it does, it doesn’t matter where you are. Um, I think. Number one goal should be look after you’ve come up with your brilliant idea, I’m sure it’s fantastic. Uh, learn who your customers are, um, and and test that idea against them.

[00:35:58] Dan Beach: Um, and and look [00:36:00] for poor feedback. Like if somebody says your idea is bad, talk to them more. Um, like they’re there. These are the folks that you need to understand. Um, and maybe it’s not a great product market fit, but at least you know, then what not to do. Um, and do that 100 times. Do it. Do it. Do it 500 times.

[00:36:17] Dan Beach: Do it as many times as you can before you put a ton of money into this thing. Um, and try to validate your idea. Um, with capital. Um, Basically, it’s it’s the same, you know, rule as you would use in Silicon Valley or anywhere else, you know, get out in front of your customer early and often, um, even if it is with a drawing or a rough prototype, whatever you can do, that’s number one.

[00:36:45] Dan Beach: Um, and then basically do this the entire time you’re, you’re developing the products. Um, you know, as you, as you’re starting to market it, like just keep testing, keep testing, don’t stop testing. Um, you’re not, you’re not looking for the testing to slow you [00:37:00] down, but rather to, to validate or invalidate your ideas.

[00:37:03] Dan Beach: Um, because What you think doesn’t really matter, actually, um, what your customers think matters, right? Uh, so, I think the, the folly that, that most, um, uh, founders run into is they don’t test. They’re like, nope, I don’t test. Brilliant idea. It’s my idea. It’s the greatest idea.

[00:37:25] Taty Fittipaldi: They get too attached.

[00:37:26] Dan Beach: Yeah. Well, and they become the company as opposed to thinking about the company as a sort of third party.

[00:37:32] Dan Beach: Um, right. Like if, if somebody says that the product is bad or the idea is bad, then I am bad.

[00:37:38] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, and that’s also not, so you’re saying they kind of, uh, personalize that?

[00:37:42] Dan Beach: Yeah. They, they anthropomorphize the, uh, product or the company. Uh, you know, it, it’s like their baby. That’s wrong. It’s not, it’s not your baby.

[00:37:53] Dan Beach: Uh, it is a moneymaking machine. Um, and that’s what it should be and you, you should [00:38:00] treat it as such. And if the money making machine is broken, you fix it, right? You don’t fix a baby. Um, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not you. It, the, the company is, is, uh, is meant to do a job. It is, it is a thing that you create where you, you have a bunch of people who believe the same thing.

[00:38:19] Dan Beach: Um, you would hope that they believe the same thing. Otherwise you’ve got sort of cultural mismatch. Um, And you’re all working toward the same goal to achieve the same mission. That’s what it should be. If you’re looking at, you know, trying to run something where you put culture first and not the actual mission, then you’re going to run into trouble down the line.

[00:38:41] Dan Beach: I think it’s super, super important to realize that this thing is meant to do a job for customers. And if it’s not doing that job, then it’s not worth doing it. Being around. Um, and then ultimately from a marketing perspective, it’s actually everything else stems from that, [00:39:00] right? Because if I understand my customer like really well, and I have great personas that that are set up around my customer, then everything else will will sort of derived from that will cascade from that.

[00:39:11] Dan Beach: Um, because then I can set up campaigns that are specifically designed to resolve the challenges that I know my customer has. Um, and I can scale those up or down. That’s that’s really just investing some money in paid media. Um, it’s quite easy to do. Creative is all geared toward the type of person that you’re actually trying to reach, um, who again, you know very well.

[00:39:31] Dan Beach: Um, and then you should expect sales from at a certain conversion rate. Um, so I think if everybody just did that, we’d have, uh, a much, a much lower failure rate and a lot more happy people. Um, Yeah, just just just validate your ideas. Go talk to your customers like and

[00:39:49] Taty Fittipaldi: I love it. It’s the whole idea of voice of the customer, right? VOC. So I yeah I I hear you. This is a good, a very good set of, [00:40:00] recommendations.

[00:40:01] Taty Fittipaldi: And I think you’re right. You know, when we go to a different country, sometimes because this is pretty basic, but sometimes we go to a different country and we get so overwhelmed by so many things that, you know, are different that we sort of, you know, forget the basics, right. You’re saying, you know, go back to the basics, man.

[00:40:21] Dan Beach: Yeah, it can. Well, because the same is true, right? Um, yeah. So, so these customers are in a different country. Maybe they, they speak a different language, they eat a different food. So that means you need to validate it more, not less. You need to talk to more customers. You need to understand these customers more.

[00:40:36] Dan Beach: Like, why would you assume that you, you know, more in this foreign place than you would otherwise, right? Um, so, so that’s, that’s, that’s That’s the trick. And it’s not even a trick. It’s a really, really basic tenet of, of, you know, founding a new company with a new idea. Um, just know your customer.

[00:40:54] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s, that’s great.

[00:40:56] Taty Fittipaldi: So how about we talk about some fun now? I want to hear [00:41:00] about the Strava app. You know, you mentioned to me, Oh my God, you know, I went to Singapore right before COVID madness. And so tell me how this whole Strava thing for you, uh, started.

[00:41:15] Dan Beach: Sure. So, yeah, I mean, I, I, we, we moved over just a few months before the pandemic hit.

[00:41:21] Dan Beach: I should preface this by saying that like part of the allure of Singapore is that you can, first of all, best airport in the world, uh, like 10 years in a row, uh, best airline in the world, world, like 10 years in a row. So there’s a good reason for that, and that’s because, um, you can travel anywhere in the world out of Singapore, and particularly in Southeast Asia, to amazing, very, very diverse places, um, for next to nothing, right?

[00:41:48] Dan Beach: So you can go to Vietnam for, like, under a hundred bucks. You can go over a weekend. You can go to Thailand for, like, under a hundred bucks. You can go to Bali. You can go to Australia. You can go, like, anywhere. Philippines, wherever Hong Kong, [00:42:00] China.

[00:42:00] Taty Fittipaldi: I like it.

[00:42:02] Dan Beach: And so and so that that is part of the allure, right?

[00:42:05] Dan Beach: Because it’s like, yeah, before the pandemic, we would pop over to Phuket for the weekend, you know, and it’s like, I think it was like, 240 with tax for me and my daughter to go, um, and spend the weekend in Phuket, which is itself very, very cheap, right? Relative to Singapore, which is very, very expensive. Yeah, so, so, so that was part of the allure. And then, um, Singapore itself is actually quite small. Um, it’s, it’s only 700 square kilometers. So, um, when the lockdown hit and we were no longer allowed to, to travel, it’s like, okay. What are we going to, what are we going to do now?

[00:42:44] Dan Beach: Um, and so the only things that you could do were, and I think this is the same for most countries, um, with, with significant lockdowns, um, you’d go to the grocery store, um, you could go for a run or you could go biking. And this is like during the [00:43:00] most, uh, severe portion of the lockdown. And there were even some questions like, do you wear a mask or don’t you wear a mask when you’re doing physical activity?

[00:43:06] Dan Beach: Because the science wasn’t really in yet. Um, I, I think everybody’s just opted because you Couldn’t really breathe with the mask on if you’re moving at

[00:43:14] Taty Fittipaldi: exercising. Yeah,

[00:43:15] Dan Beach: yeah. And real clip. Um, yeah. So, so I bought a bike, um, which is lucky that I bought it when I did, because now you can’t even, you can’t even buy a bike.

[00:43:26] Dan Beach: There’s just no stock. Um, and, uh, I decided that I was going to give this biking thing a go. Um, Singapore is actually very bike friendly, um, where, uh, Shenzhen for the longest time, better now, but for the longest time was not because road traffic in China is again, kind of scary. Yeah. Um, but yes, now everybody in Singapore is on a bike.

[00:43:50] Dan Beach: It’s not everybody. I’m over exaggerating, but there’s a lot of bikers in, in, uh, in Singapore now. Um, and so, uh, I started off [00:44:00] going, uh, you know, like 18 kilometers an hour, which on a bike is very, very slow, um, especially a road bike. Um, and now I’m quite a bit quicker cause you know, we, we go out for work and whatnot.

[00:44:12] Dan Beach: And, uh, yeah, the, the, the big one that we did was actually we did the entire Island. Um, so we, we circumnavigated the country, um, in a, in a single day, which is about. Uh, 120 kilometers, depending on the route you take.

[00:44:27] Taty Fittipaldi: Wow, that’s a lot.

[00:44:28] Dan Beach: Anywhere between 120 and 130 kilometers. Yeah. And, and one day we did it for work.

[00:44:33] Dan Beach: It was, it was great. We got kidded. We had our own pink, uh, shirts. Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah, that, that, that, that was great. Um, started at 4 30 in the morning, ended up. Uh, somewhere in the region of I think, uh, 11 30. So, so we weren’t going for speed. We’re really just looking to finish. Um, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m looking forward to doing it again.

[00:44:55] Dan Beach: It’ll be a lot of fun. And now everybody, so speaking of Strava now, everybody’s just on this app [00:45:00] looking at, uh, it’s almost. replaced golf in a way, like all of the business folks that I, that I work with in a partnership, um, perspective, they’re all, uh, biking around, around town. And so everybody’s like checking out, you know, who’s the fastest, who’s going, you know, faster on average than the other, than the other folks.

[00:45:18] Dan Beach: And it’s a topic of conversation. that I work with. Um, it’s yeah, it’s quite interesting.

[00:45:25] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s amazing. That’s really amazing. I, and I imagine you guys, at least for you that, you know, just came to Singapore, you probably made some friends too through this, you know, this whole biking thing, right?

[00:45:38] Dan Beach: Yeah. Well, not just that. I mean, like even, um, Just because yeah, I mean you need people to go biking with so, you know, this this app is an interesting way to to You know see the people that you already know because it suggests your friends or people that you’re connected with And you’re like, oh, what do you what are you doing Saturday?

[00:45:57] Dan Beach: And so I’ve I’ve [00:46:00] got a lot of like I said work people that I work with Uh, with but that work at other companies, right? I’m in a partnership role. Um, so yeah, we’ll, we’ll go with them. We’ll go in, you know, with, with workmates alone and as a, as a means by which to network. It’s been fantastic. Yeah.

[00:46:15] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s great.

[00:46:17] Taty Fittipaldi: Sports and networking. That’s, that’s an amazing combination. Getting healthy and networking. That’s really, that’s really amazing. Dan, tell me You went from Canada to China and then from China to Singapore. What did these expatriation experiences teach you?

[00:46:37] Dan Beach: Well, everything in my context is, um, you know, I spent most of my adult years, uh, have been overseas. Um, so in, in, uh, In fact, by September of this year, I will have spent more time, uh, outside of Canada than in, so I’m, I’m really more of an expat than, than actually, uh, Canadian. Um, [00:47:00] which, I mean, I, I, I’m Canadian through and through, and, uh, I’ll, I’ll never lose the accent, certainly not, but, um, I’ll, I’ll certainly have spent more and learned more time.

[00:47:10] Dan Beach: Keeping in mind that many of those Canadian years were spent in a diaper. Um, I think, I think, yeah, uh, in, in, in waking conscious learning terms, I’ve spent a great deal more time, uh, overseas than, than, uh, in Canada. Um, yeah, but I, I guess. Probably number one is, is it taught me how to learn, um, and teach myself, um, because, yeah, I mean, you, you, you grow up being taught, um, what I learned, because I kind of cut and run, I just went, um, I, I didn’t really, you know, prepare and I’m sort of my modus operandi and maybe I get myself into trouble sometimes, but uh, I just kind of go for it.

[00:47:56] Dan Beach: Um, you know, I, once I feel [00:48:00] like I have enough information, I’ll just try. Um, and it just so happened that trying meant popping on a plane, flying, you know, 15, 000 kilometers in the other direction and hoping for the best. Um, but that’s, that’s been a, an absolutely massive asset because. I have tried and failed, sure, but it’s been small failures where I could pick myself up and, you know, keep going.

[00:48:25] Dan Beach: Um, and that ability to just test and try again and test and try again, um, has, has been really, really valuable for me, um, because I know that, you know, I’m not going to die if I go and, you know, you know, try this new thing, um, or go to this new place, um, I, I will survive and, and, um, you know, live to, live to fight another day.

[00:48:47] Dan Beach: Uh, and, and so that’s allowed me to, to learn at a rapid pace, like in a way that I never would have otherwise. It’s, it’s hard to say like how much or Um, you know, what would the difference be if I stayed [00:49:00] home in Canada? I’m not sure that I ever could or would, um, like, um, or was I always destined to, to, you know, hop on that plane and go overseas in some form or fashion?

[00:49:09] Dan Beach: I think probably likely. Um, but, um, yeah, if anything, it’s just made me more aware of the, you know, the world and, and, you know, my place in it, you know, uh, bigger yet smaller at the same time.

[00:49:26] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s an amazing answer. So you learned and you grew, you grew. That’s an amazing answer. Oh my goodness. I loved it. I loved it.

[00:49:36] Taty Fittipaldi: Dan, thank you so much for being here. You are such a fun guy to talk with. I really had a great experience. I hope you did too. And I am so thankful for you. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your experiences.

[00:49:51] Dan Beach: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. It’s been fun.

[00:49:54] Taty Fittipaldi: Thank you.

[00:49:54]

[00:49:56] HIGHLIGHTS

[00:49:56] Taty Fittipaldi: This brings us to the end of this Leadership Nest episode. [00:50:00] I trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your decisions and performance in critical global leadership roles and situations. Stay tuned for a next joy ride with expatriates interview! We promise to surprise you with new stories and concepts to help you learn more about international relocation, acclimation and cultural integrations.

[00:50:23] Taty Fittipaldi: Wherever you are in the globe, this is Taty Fittipaldi wishing you a beautiful day.

[00:50:28] Taty Fittipaldi: If you have any questions, you’d like us to answer in a future episode of this show, just go to speakpipe.com/tatyfittipaldi or click the link in the show notes, to leave us a brief audio message.

[00:50:46] Taty Fittipaldi: Make sure to visit us on our website www.theleadershipnest.com, where you can subscribe to our show anywhere podcasts are streamed, so you never miss the [00:51:00] fun.

[00:51:00] Taty Fittipaldi: While there, if you find value in our show, you can also subscribe to our global leadership weekly newsletter from Coaching Expatriates®, where we deliver bite-sized lessons on global leadership, decision-making, and cultural competence to help you learn how to think, relate and strategize in a whole different way as a global leader.

[00:51:21] Taty Fittipaldi: If you liked our show, you might want to check our online global executive leadership program. A nine week leadership development and learning system, that will help you lead internationally while making financially conscious and impactful business decisions.

[00:51:37] Taty Fittipaldi: Taty Fittipaldi is also available for private coaching. See the websites for more details at www.coachingexpatriates.com/executive-coaching.

[00:51:49] Taty Fittipaldi: Thanks for joining us this week on The Leadership Nest podcast. I trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your performance in critical [00:52:00] global leadership roles and situations.

[00:52:02]