S2 EP015 | Joyride With Expatriates – A Citizen Of The World From India

[00:00:00] INTRODUCTION

[00:00:00]

[00:00:05] Taty Fittipaldi: Hello and welcome to The Leadership Nest podcast. This is season two of the global leadership podcast that combines stories, knowledge and science to soar the leadership in you. I’m your host Taty Fittipaldi. During this season, we invited 20 different expatriates from around the world to share their stories, their learning journeys, and their tips to make you a better leader and an inspired person. You can also watch the live interviews on our YouTube channel! Search for Coaching Expatriates® channel, then select the playlist called Joyride With Expatriates.

[00:00:43] Taty Fittipaldi: In today’s episode, we’ll talk with Mandi Gupta, who originally comes from India and had the opportunity to live in places like Oman, Kenya, and Dubai. Today, she feels a citizen of the world. Here [00:01:00] is her story.

[00:01:01] JOYRIDE WITH AN EXPATRIATE

(This section’s transcript was AI-generated and may contain errors)

[00:01:01] Taty Fittipaldi: Mandy, welcomee to our show. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you.

[00:01:08] Mandy Gupta: Thank you, Tati. I’m happy to be here with you. I look forward to the chat.

[00:01:13] Taty Fittipaldi: Awesome. So you were born in India, right?

[00:01:16] Mandy Gupta: That’s right.

[00:01:17] Taty Fittipaldi: So let’s talk about India for a moment because I have so many cool questions for you.

[00:01:21] Taty Fittipaldi: So my first question is, whoever never lived in India have the perspective of how India is like by you know the movies, by the Bollywood movies, etc. So I wanted to ask you, how is really the wedding industry in India? Because what we see in the movies is about, you know, how matchmaking is important in India.

[00:01:51] Taty Fittipaldi: It’s traditional, the parents talk to each other, et cetera. So I just wanted to get your perspective, how it really is [00:02:00] in India.

[00:02:02] Mandy Gupta: Yes, it’s actually a very interesting topic for other people, other parts of the world about India’s wedding, wedding industry. Marriage still is very important in India.

[00:02:14] Mandy Gupta: Even though people have gone ahead and got a lot of modern views, that you can live together, you can maybe not marry, but still, it’s a very big part of the family thinking. So, and therefore, there are Till arranged marriages, which are blooming, which is surprising that people today actually want to meet somebody who they’re introduced to with the concept of getting married and meet, interact, and they take it forward.

[00:02:42] Mandy Gupta: Yes, it’s constantly happening and it’s become more organized now. Before it used to be, you know, within families. Or through word of mouth of friends, then there was this newspaper advertisement. Then came the, um, you know, the, uh, net internet, [00:03:00] but through the internet, they would get, you know, apply for a matrimonial, but now it’s become more interesting.

[00:03:06] Mandy Gupta: They have actual agents like head hunting. Believe you me, I’m not exaggerating. They actually have headhunters. They call them, uh, they have a name for them. Forgetting what, marriage agents, something like the wedding planners, marriage agents. So they actually visit two homes and they see if there’s a cultural fusion.

[00:03:27] Mandy Gupta: They come and sell their, you know, the families to each other, and then they talk about it. So it’s, and more upmarket it is, the more, uh, of course, uh, more they charge you and it’s a booming industry.

[00:03:39] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s so fascinating. And who they seek first, the parents or, who is going to actually get married?

[00:03:47] Mandy Gupta: No, in arranged marriage, they first see the family. They will find out about the guy. You see marriage when it is an arranged marriage is like a job. They see the prospects of, you know, [00:04:00] monetary prospects, then the family culture was standing society standing. So it has to be the first they have to know that there is a guy who’s working and economically productive.

[00:04:10] Mandy Gupta: And then they will put one check on the family. So it’s still a lot of family affair. Even now in India, it’s even now a big thing for families to get together. to get inside the family. You don’t marry just the guy even now in India. Whether you would like to tell yourself that or not, after whatever you may tell yourself, I’m marrying just the guy.

[00:04:31] Mandy Gupta: When you are into it, you are married to the family. I see. So in laws are important as well. Yeah, yeah, yes. Very important. You know, family attachments are high everywhere. I wouldn’t say it’s, you know, it’s more in India or less in the other parts of the world. Never. It’s all the same, but it’s the way people respond to family situations.

[00:04:54] Mandy Gupta: In India, it’s still a lot more inclusive of everyone. Uh, trying to include [00:05:00] everyone all the time for a lot of, uh, social, um, you know, social celebration, social, uh, matters. So it depends again, like you will understand that, you know, different families, different exposures that segregates the kind of, uh, how much in, you know, they include people in their lives, the modern couples, but it’s still very much family is still very much a part of our lives.

[00:05:26] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s really fascinating. And you talked about they checking out social standing. So, could you tell us about the caste system, how does it work and how the red dots or, or the dots in the foreheads are connected? Talk a little bit about that.

[00:05:43] Mandy Gupta: Okay. Tati, let me first segregate a little bit. Marriage, arranged marriage, is a social custom. It’s still running. It’s becoming more organized. It has really, really nothing to do with the caste system right now. Yes, [00:06:00] caste is there still in India, but it’s very, very hidden. The caste, you know, the caste because now nobody wants to say openly that they believe in caste caste, but it’s There.

[00:06:14] Mandy Gupta: It’s not there in our regular fabric of life anymore, especially the more urbanized you are, the more modern you are, the more, you know, you’re living in cities, don’t feel it. It’s more you feel it in the villages. Oh, I see. It is quite strong in certain parts of India still, which are not urbanized, but, uh, so it’s not really, now marriages are not really happening, uh, as for the caste.

[00:06:42] Mandy Gupta: There was a time when you had to marry between your same caste, upper caste, lower caste, middle caste, whatever it is, but now it is more into what the guy is doing, the professional, uh, status of the guy. And then they, of course, check the family culture and the family. They [00:07:00] also want to navigate the family.

[00:07:01] Mandy Gupta: So it combines that kind of caste looking at caste during marriage is much, much less. I think it’s a very minuscule percentage, but they still say. It’s probably not there. I think, uh, that thinking has broadened a bit. Yeah. So it’s, it’s, they’re in marriage, they’ll see the boy, they’ll see the family, they’ll see the standing.

[00:07:25] Mandy Gupta: That’s it. Now, coming back to your question about caste system, this is my, this is what I feel that it’s a very, very hidden, thing inside, and you don’t feel it in the urban life at all. But yes, in the poor sections, it is still there. There are a lot of atrocities. It’s again hidden. So it’s not so open. So you have to walk into the spaces to see what’s happening.

[00:07:47] Mandy Gupta: Coming back to your question on Bindi, which I think fascinates you a lot. Yes. That red dot that we put here, right? Mostly red, but you can wear different colors. Basically, the bindi [00:08:00] is actually more, most of India wears it as a mark of marriage, wedding. It’s, it’s when you’re married, you wear the bindi.

[00:08:09] Mandy Gupta: When you become a widow, the first thing which goes is the bindi. Oh, really? I mean, as per the old practice, that’s what they remove. So it could be a vermilion mark. Vermilion mark is a powder which is used for marking the wedding signs. So with that, you put it. On the forehead and you put it on your hair in your hair.

[00:08:30] Mandy Gupta: Also, some, some, some communities also put it in their head. But the moment you become a widow, that’s the first thing that is traditional.

[00:08:41] Taty Fittipaldi: And what does it mean? What does it mean?

[00:08:44] Mandy Gupta: Even now, if you are wearing us, if you are a woman who is wearing a Sindoor of a million mark, when you lose your husband, you remove that.

[00:08:53] Mandy Gupta: So, uh, now that is the larger practice of wearing a bindi mostly for people who are [00:09:00] married, but also unmarried women, girls also wear. bindis in many, some parts of India, uh, especially in the Southern parts of India. And we also have another very, you know, about India is very spiritual in the sense, not religious all the time, but they have a lot of spiritual belief.

[00:09:18] Mandy Gupta: So they also believe that the bindi, this place is the, you know, you have energy points in your body called chakras. You have very active, uh, high power energy. which comes out from here, the chakra. So they say, when you mark it and you press it, you try to concentrate your, all your activities, you know, uh, you begin your day with that bindi and you concentrate through your mind and you look more towards a focused, uh, so it’s always explained with some kind of spirituality, some kind of logic, science.

[00:09:54] Mandy Gupta: This is a science now people. I’ve started again, believing in, in the chakras and the [00:10:00] healing through chakras. It’s a very organized science. So coming back to that, that is the story of Bindi. And, uh, of course, as fashion came in, people started wearing different colors of Bindi, blue, red, pink. That was not the traditional.

[00:10:14] Mandy Gupta: Okay. One was a red Kumkum, vermilion, or sometimes when you did your, when you worship the Hindu gods, you were given a sandalwood, uh, Bindi. You know, with sandalwood. But all these colored bindis are a statement of fashion. And, uh, everybody can wear it. When it becomes a statement of fashion, anybody and everybody can wear it.

[00:10:37] Mandy Gupta: But traditionally, yes, it is connected with, uh, red bindi is connected with, uh, marriage and especially vermilion mark, which is that powdered bindi, which you put, uh, and when you lose your husband or become a widow, which is a very sexist practice, but it’s a practice, uh, That’s the first thing they remove, sadly.

[00:10:59] Mandy Gupta: Well, these [00:11:00] are dying now in the sense people have stopped wearing these vermilion mark, traditional, you know, way of wearing a bindi. Today, if you wear a bindi, you want to wear it just for fashion. So you can wear it long, you can wear it like a star, you can wear it like a snake. You can use this place like a tattoo almost and, you know, wear it.

[00:11:20] Mandy Gupta: So, so that traditional way of looking at the bindi is now almost gone, I would say, in the urban area. Rural areas still hold on to a lot of custom.

[00:11:31] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s, that’s really fascinating. And, I don’t know if this is also a common practice in India. I see sometimes in movies or series… they tattoo, they do beautiful tattoos in the hands. And so, I was wondering what do they mean, or, if there is any meaning.

[00:11:49] Mandy Gupta: I love it. You call it a tattoo. So it’s, yes, it looks like that. It can be called maybe. So what you’re talking about, what we do on our hands, it’s called mehendi. [00:12:00] Mehendi. Mehendi. Okay. So it’s a very old traditional practice of adorning your body with natural elements.

[00:12:09] Mandy Gupta: You know, it’s a traditional past practice, which is carried on and it’s just becoming bigger and bigger. So it’s made from natural organic plant product. And that basically adorns you, makes you look pretty. It’s also, um, a kind of a cultural. Uh, beauty that, you know, and the more artistic you are, the more, uh, beautiful you produce those,

[00:12:35] Taty Fittipaldi: the artistry of, of,

[00:12:39] Mandy Gupta: and then there, then there is, and of course now you have professionals coming in, but traditionally people in the houses to do it to each other, to the bride, to the people, uh, dressing up for the marriage.

[00:12:51] Mandy Gupta: Now you have all professionals who come. If you are getting married. You will have a professional person sitting and doing it for all your friends and your [00:13:00] relatives. So they are all generally very good. And of course every practice has a story attached to it. So they say that if your hand becomes red with that paint, henna, you are loved by your husband.

[00:13:16] Mandy Gupta: If it is brighter, you are loved by your mother in law. So all these stories go on to make, you know, make it a more magical ceremony. The end. fun. So yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s becoming actually more and more, um, uh, organized the mehendi industry. Again, I would say, because we have full team of mehendi people who will come, uh, to do these, uh, to attend all these weddings.

[00:13:41] Mandy Gupta: Uh, not attend to serve and to do this work at the weddings, you’ll have all of them doing a brilliant work on your arms, on your hands.

[00:13:50] Taty Fittipaldi: It’s just for the bride or other people, other women can also wear it.

[00:13:54] Mandy Gupta: No, all women like to dress up, right? So though,

[00:13:56] Taty Fittipaldi: yeah, so everybody can do it. Oh, that’s [00:14:00] awesome.

[00:14:00] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s it.

[00:14:00] Mandy Gupta: So it starts with the bride, of course, the bride is the main and the fun is that we are giving you. So everybody sits together. It’s a beautiful ceremony. So the bride stops and everybody sits together. So if like, it’s everyone doing it together and together. Yes. So, you know, mehendi is what you see more in Bollywood.

[00:14:22] Mandy Gupta: It’s a very North Indian. Then some parts of East India. Now everyone almost does it. But there is another thing that we do with color in Eastern India, in Bengal, that is, they play with turmeric. You know, the turmeric powder? Yes. So, traditionally, Bengalis would not do mehendi. But again, the same practice of adorning with natural colors.

[00:14:48] Mandy Gupta: uh, plant, uh, organic cosmetic. So that was haldi. Haldi is turmeric. I don’t know what it is called. There’s another French name for it, which I don’t remember probably. But it’s [00:15:00] called turmeric. Do you know, you know, understand what is turmeric, right?

[00:15:02] Taty Fittipaldi: Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:15:03] Mandy Gupta: So, so the turmeric paste is actually put on the, on the bride’s, Face all over, and she’s bathed in it.

[00:15:11] Mandy Gupta: And after she’s been, uh, smeared with the turmeric, all the other friends, you know, and the relatives, uh, aunts, they all play with that on each other’s face, basically putting it on each other. . So the, the, the actual thinking is, uh, turmeric is antiseptic. Turmeric, uh, is cleanser, good cleanser, and turmeric makes your skin glow.

[00:15:36] Mandy Gupta: So this is like an organic, uh, cosmetic, but you play with it at the wedding day and make it a custom. Mehendi is also a plant based product. Mehendi is made from a plant based product, and they adorn their hands. That’s more North India, uh, Delhi, Punjab, Rajasthan, also UP, also UP side. Uh, But turmeric [00:16:00] is very Bengal.

[00:16:01] Mandy Gupta: So India is not homogeneous. You know, Tati, India, we call ourselves India, one country, but each state is completely different. It’s like a European Union almost, like each state is so different from the other. It’s like a separate country almost. We have our own language, own festivals, own practices.

[00:16:24] Mandy Gupta: Everything is like different, but we are united in that same bond of being Indians, which is very interesting. It’s not a homogeneous country.

[00:16:31] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s so interesting. And you mentioned earlier about India being very spiritual. So, and I know, I know you, you are not religious, but you believe in God, but could you tell us about Hinduism?

[00:16:45] Taty Fittipaldi: Can you tell, for example, we have these very impressive gods, right? Like Ganesha. Like Durga. I don’t know I just know few of them. Yeah, they, they, they’re very [00:17:00] impressive. I mean, for people who don’t have a lot of contact, they look very impressive. Right? So I was wondering if you have a take on that, if you could talk about it, anything you can enlighten me.

[00:17:12] Mandy Gupta: Of course, I’m happy. I’m happy to talk about it because, you know, Tati, I’m happy you asked me this question because by and large, the world doesn’t understand Hinduism and I don’t blame them because what they see is worshipping, uh, uh, elephant head, worshipping, uh, suddenly, uh, a snake or something. So they don’t understand what it is.

[00:17:33] Mandy Gupta: And I would equally react to it if I did not know the philosophy behind Hinduism. As I said, I don’t practice any religions. I’m not practicing Hindu, but I come from a Hindu family. And I know that Hinduism is a religion based on a lot of symbolism. So it’s, it’s, it’s seated in very deep philosophy. The philosophy behind Hinduism is very deep.

[00:17:58] Mandy Gupta: The problem is it is [00:18:00] lost in translation. It is not transferred to the common people, the whole essence of Hinduism, but people practice it the way they are happy. But And that’s your question. Why do we have these We do idol worship, right? We have many idols. So it’s not that, um, we believe basically in many gods.

[00:18:21] Mandy Gupta: We believe actually in the unity of God, that there is one God, but he’s manifested in different powers. Like the biggest power has its own manifestations in different powerless, you know, different other power channels. So as a normal human being, you may not be able to address that almighty, that power without a figure or a symbol in your head.

[00:18:48] Mandy Gupta: It’s not possible for everyone. It’s difficult to think of a light or to think of nothing, um, and concentrate. So it’s much easier probably [00:19:00] to give you a symbol, a story, uh, Connect to make for you to make a connection with that, uh, figure and, uh, take you down that path to understand the almighty. So it’s a bit complicated.

[00:19:14] Mandy Gupta: I cannot probably explain everything in, uh, this small session, but I’m glad you brought it up. So why is it a Durga suddenly who comes with 10 hands? What is this showing us 10 hands, killing a demon with 10 heads?

[00:19:31] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, she usually has a lot of weapons, right, in her hands.

[00:19:35] Mandy Gupta: What the hell is happening here?

[00:19:37] Mandy Gupta: But you see, there is a lot of, this is actually a much deeper philosophy. I won’t be able to express everything, but what I’ll tell you is, What is durga? Durga is an, is a, is uh, basically representing a force of goodness over evil. And the whole world is fighting all the time against evil, right? You’re always, there is a, [00:20:00] uh, battle of evil and good and bad constantly in this world.

[00:20:03] Mandy Gupta: So durga is the image of the goodness, triumphing and goodness coming out with lot of power. Oh. And if you hear the story, mythological story of Durga, how he, she gets 10 hands and so many weapons, it’s very interesting. Every God, you know, like now, if you think of it philosophically, the whole universe power comes in to make a power of goodness.

[00:20:30] Mandy Gupta: So Durga is the goodness, Durga is This is a universal goddess who’s coming down to kill the evil, to triumph evil, to rid the world of all evil. And this demon with those, he is a representative of, with the 10 heads, Ravana is the representative of evil, which is a Ram Ravana. And Durga kills Asura. Asura is a, is a demon.

[00:20:59] Mandy Gupta: So it’s [00:21:00] basically destruction of the evil by the good. So the good comes with all power, backed by everybody, all weapons. So it is like shown in that one image to show the power of the goddess. That’s fascinating and I like this story. The good over evil. I like it. Yeah, even I, even like when I mentioned Ravana, there is a story of Rama.

[00:21:23] Mandy Gupta: You will see a lot of Rama things. God, Rama happens. In India, there’s a lot of agitation which happened recently on Ayodhya issue where Rama was born. So Rama is another king who was the king probably, but he’s made into a god and then he goes and conquers a ten headed, uh, Ravana who’s made to be a demon, who was actually a king of Sri Lanka as per some history, but it’s again a conquering of goodness and bringing back, uh, right, you know, to, uh, to bring, bring certain things, right.

[00:21:55] Mandy Gupta: It’s, it’s, it’s, the whole thing is very symbolic, uh, Hinduism. [00:22:00] So when you see Ganesha with an elephant head, why is he given an elephant head? There is a lot of story behind that. In one line, I cannot, mythological stories are lost, but Ganesha actually is a God of wisdom. Okay. So, um, he is can be portrayed in different ways.

[00:22:21] Mandy Gupta: He’s portraying the story where he’s put in a family story of Lord Shiva’s son, Parvati’s son, and there is a story given that how he plays one day and how he gets a Ganesha head. So all these are given to make these, this actual symbolic goals real in your life. To make them, you know, to bring them close to your life by giving a story, giving a magical fairy tale around them, to bring it close to the children.

[00:22:51] Mandy Gupta: And the children, when they grew up, they have them in their heart like that. So they make so they love that whatever representation of the universe, of the God, [00:23:00] they grow to love and relate to that. It’s just it’s a beautiful love relationship. When you, um, when you are, you know, worshiping a deity, believing it’s true, uh, getting into a relationship, talking to it, enjoying the stories built around it, laughing around the stories.

[00:23:18] Mandy Gupta: So it’s a very beautiful journey. If people know, uh, if, if the, in translation, it is not lost, the fact that this is just created to create that. relationship, not that there are 10 different, uh, you know, idols sitting there looking after us, but it’s just symbolic of one universe with power, manifestations of all different powers through the different incarnation of God.

[00:23:47] Mandy Gupta: We, you know, Hindu, you must probably read Hinduism, Brahma, Vishnu, um, and, uh, Shiva, the, you know, you have the preserver, the destroyer, um, Uh, creator, the [00:24:00] concept is three power, three aspects of power. Creator the world. Braai is the creator, um, Vishnu, somebody has to preserve to sustain the world. There’s a preserver and um, uh, Shiva is a destroyer.

[00:24:15] Mandy Gupta: But again, destruction brings creation.

[00:24:19] Taty Fittipaldi: New, yes, the creation, absolutely, yeah.

[00:24:23] Mandy Gupta: I cannot explain to you, really, I don’t know what I’m saying is going to make a lot of sense to people right now, but it just might give them some idea and make them a little more curious. To check it out, right? To go and understand the Indian philosophy behind which You know, a lot of explanations lie, but very sadly, uh, is, is the situation that A lot of people do not know the real essence of Hinduism.

[00:24:50] Mandy Gupta: They just do the rituals. They practice rituals blindly, uh, to the state. They can, they can even, you know, carry on [00:25:00] a fight based on our understanding of a ritual, but it becomes ritualistic at the end of the day. For many reasons, because like you had, uh, in the Middle East, in the Middle Ages, you had the church and the popes becoming powerful and lack of knowledge to the normal people in the medieval Europe.

[00:25:19] Mandy Gupta: In the same way, India, Hinduism has also gone through the same. The Brahmins wouldn’t let the actual knowledge of Hinduism go down to the other castes because their power would go. And by doing that, a lot of distortion happens. It’s, it’s a problem. It’s a journey. I guess everyone makes. the religious, um, reformation, I don’t know.

[00:25:39] Mandy Gupta: But that is why a lot of reformation has also happened in Hinduism. You have a lot of breakaways. You have a lot of breakaway societies. You have Arya Samaj, you have Brahmo Samaj. Now you have, uh, you know, Buddhism started actually, um, as a reform movement of Hinduism. But now it’s a completely different religion and a beautiful religion, [00:26:00] which again, believes like Hinduism in, uh, rebirth.

[00:26:05] Mandy Gupta: In, in, uh, karma. Karma means what you do now. You will reap as you sow. You will, yes. You’ll pay. You’ll pay. Sometimes you’ll pay. It’s a lovely concept to believe in. It gives you a lot of meaning in life somehow. So I don’t know, Tati, if I’ve explained to you very well.

[00:26:23] Taty Fittipaldi: No, that’s perfect. And that’s fascinating.

[00:26:26] Mandy Gupta: Something probably I’ve been able to throw that, you know, it’s not just blind worship of deity. That’s not Hinduism. Even I would laugh at it. It’s not like that. There’s so much more depth behind and, you know, there’s so much more symbolism behind it. It’s, it’s very difficult unless you study it. And that’s the sadness.

[00:26:45] Mandy Gupta: People should understand what they are told. Simplify it. You don’t simplify it to a state where it’s gone into complete enigma. No one knows what it’s. So, well, I shouldn’t pass opinions.

[00:26:59] Taty Fittipaldi: No. [00:27:00] And India is fascinating, but I know you have some fascinating stories that are as well in other places of the world.

[00:27:09] Taty Fittipaldi: So now I wanted to talk about your experiences during your expatriation. So talk about Oman, Kenya, where else have you been? You’ve been also in Dubai, right? What was your biggest cultural shock there in those places? And talk about those places a little bit to us.

[00:27:28] Mandy Gupta: Well, um, you know, from India, my first move was Oman. It’s, well, it’s the God’s best kept sacred, beautiful God. But my shock was when I joined a university college to teach their English. I joined as an English lecturer and I’ve always been confident in the classroom and I never felt problem with relating to the students.

[00:27:51] Mandy Gupta: But really, very honestly, Tati, what threw me off guard for a second was, you see, I was not used to the, uh, the kind of clothes they wear. [00:28:00] I’d just gone in from India. And, um, it’s a cultural, uh, shift. It takes time. So when I entered a class full of young Ani boys, all were wearing those Kans, which they call Kuras, Oman, Kuras.

[00:28:15] Mandy Gupta: Yes. And with those head gear. Okay. Now each one wears a different headgear. Some wear a cap, some wear a bandana, kind of with a band, depending on the village they hail from. So when all of them sat together in that kind of an outfit, I suddenly, you know, felt very alienated. This is not what I was used to looking at in a classroom.

[00:28:37] Mandy Gupta: And, uh, it’s, it’s, it may be silly because it’s just clothes, but the entire atmosphere just changed for me. I was thinking, who am I addressing? Um, okay. Am I in the right place? Are they understanding me? So I actually got a bit intimidated on the first two days. I was thinking, this is not me. What is it that is intimidating me?

[00:28:58] Mandy Gupta: So carry on with the class. [00:29:00] And then after a few classes, we got friendly with the boys slowly. And I started laughing at myself. I said, Oh my God, aren’t people the same everywhere in the world? 17, 18 year old boy is same, more or less, you know, human beings are the same everywhere. It is very cute when I discovered that under those, you know, formative, not formative, to me, it was alien clothing.

[00:29:26] Mandy Gupta: So different kind of clothing didn’t become any different. They were just like the students I’ve dealt with before, as loving, as naughty, as, uh, you know, curious how, you know, how boys are handful in a nice way. So yes, that was a real culture shock for a few days, I would say. And then I got over it, and then I became very good friends with them.

[00:29:49] Mandy Gupta: But, uh, that was a good learning, slowly that you learn. And then I remember Went for an Eid party. They all invited me and then they pushed me to the girls [00:30:00] section. Though the boys were also my students, I could not go to the boys section. I was put in the girls section. So then when they invited me home, which is very nice, I was taken to the ladies, the boys invited me.

[00:30:12] Mandy Gupta: I was taken to the ladies section and I was asked to sit there. So I was thinking, okay, but that was so beautiful. You know, they didn’t make me feel like an alien even for a second when they called me home, when their son, or I guess, called me home for Eid and it was full. It was crowded. I’d gone with both my children.

[00:30:30] Mandy Gupta: They were small. So, uh, to show them, uh, how it is celebrated in Oman. It was so beautiful. I was like, for a while I was thinking, oh God, I don’t know. Nobody knows me here. They just got me inside as if I was one of them. That’s a very hospitable. Extremely hospitable, uh, culture actually. And then they were eating biryani.

[00:30:49] Mandy Gupta: They, they eat it together. So spread it on a big plate and they all sit down and start eating from one side. So obviously, and they were very sensitive. They probably thought for a second, I may not [00:31:00] like it. I, I, I mean, I may not enjoy it. And for a second, I was taken aback. Like I don’t know how to just go and start eating from there.

[00:31:07] Mandy Gupta: So they were so sweet. They got him another plate. fill it up for me to sit and eat with my children. And then, you know, it is, it is very, I found it very touching. I learned something, how they open up their heart to me because I was invited, though they did not know me. At that point, it didn’t matter. I was not one of them.

[00:31:25] Mandy Gupta: So that was nice. Then from Oman, I moved to Dubai. Dubai didn’t have so much of a culture shock because Arabic is more or less the same. Uh, except the, the The getting a license in Dubai was as bad as getting one in Oman. I mean, they put you through a grilling thing. So, which is not in India, India is much easier to get a license.

[00:31:49] Mandy Gupta: So getting a license in the Gulf cities is, is an achievement almost like getting a entrance into a university. Anyway, so other than that, Dubai [00:32:00] was not a culture shock in cultural, uh, in this, uh, in, in the kind. The way I had, you know, the Oman, what I was exposed to, because I already knew the Arabic culture by then, but Dubai was a different learning.

[00:32:13] Mandy Gupta: It’s an, it was an Arabic country when I went and yet it was a potpourri of the world. Every nationality had come to work in Dubai. So Dubai is part of United Arab Emirates. It’s one of the emirates of United Arab Emirates. It’s their flagship city. So, but Dubai was very unlike an Islamic place because they had people from all over the world, uh, very cosmopolitan, very international.

[00:32:38] Mandy Gupta: It had wonderful places to eat. It had the best restaurants and hotels in the world. I mean, if you saw Dubai and then you went even to was in Vegas, you would say, ah, If Dubai could start gambling, then Vegas would lose its charm. Dubai was a not a culture shock. Dubai was a cultural delight. Dubai [00:33:00] was a cultural high.

[00:33:02] Mandy Gupta: Dubai was a hedonistic pleasure. I mean, it was awesome. So You know, from Oman, when I moved to Dubai, I was, okay, I’m going to bigger city, better jobs, better things to learn. But what really blew me was, what really blew me was the amazing hedonism, uh, going on. Pleasure was the aim of life in the sense, in the sense, uh, and good food, good, uh, restaurants, beautiful roads.

[00:33:34] Mandy Gupta: A green desert, everywhere plants, good living. I mean, it was, it was a desert. Converted into such an awesome place. Yes. It’s a huge case study. And I remember my father visiting me and every three minutes he would say the same thing a desert 10 years back. It was all full of sad. [00:34:00] So many times that my eight year old children started telling him.

[00:34:05] Mandy Gupta: Oh, the grandfather. We will repeat the, we will finish the sentence for you. We know , but I can understand where he was coming from. Dubai was a, it was a total high. It’s so different world. Oh wow. World. So when I went from Dubai to Kenya, uh, it was like chalk and cheese. From Dubai, when you go to Kenya, you, there are no roads that are, uh, you know, I had to, when I first went to Kenya nightclub, I’m very excited.

[00:34:35] Mandy Gupta: Let me go to Kenya’s Alphondo dancing. So let’s go. Oh my God. It was open air. Uh, Anybody could walk in like, uh, and you’re walking through some dirty lanes, uh, probably breaking a few bricks over here or twisting your ankle almost. But, and then it’s, nobody’s, somebody had dressed up, somebody’s not, you can wear anything and go in.

[00:34:58] Mandy Gupta: I’m like, hello, what is [00:35:00] this? Who comes to nightclub? I had such a, that was a different kind of a culture shock. I was like, I’m not going out. This is not decent place. to go out. But then I changed after a few months. I was in love with Kenya nightclubs. They had a feeling of happiness around them. There was no, nothing artificial about Africa.

[00:35:22] Mandy Gupta: It was an open place under the sun and under the skies was, you know, Kenya, especially Nairobi is on a height. So you could have a, they have a very good weather all the year round. So it was like a shed, you know, almost a dance place. Uh, you could just go and dance there. There was music happening, disco happening.

[00:35:40] Mandy Gupta: I mean, I’ve also been, I’ve also been to, uh, dance clubs, nightclubs, but there were haystacks where you were sitting. It was a part of the funky thing. You know, so it is amazing. So you didn’t have to dress up. You didn’t have to think who’s saying, you know, who’s wearing what, what brands are you carrying?

[00:35:55] Mandy Gupta: No, you just enjoyed yourself. And that thing got [00:36:00] so much into me. I fell in love. I fell in love with the people of Africa, fell in love with Kenya and the locals. You know, when you don’t know exactly when I first went to Oman, when I, I used to think that, okay, the different outfits makes them different people.

[00:36:17] Mandy Gupta: So when I first went to Kenya, I had so many stories about, um, Kenya being unsafe. There are robbers. There are, so you had that into your head. My God, there’s robbers everywhere. There are robbers everywhere, so you have to be careful. And then I started interacting with the locals because of my job. I joined the German guy was working in a big NGO and he told me he was, he was quite fascinated with my curiosity of things and he said, okay, fine, I won’t pay you, but you can join.

[00:36:46] Mandy Gupta: So, but I’m so glad I did that, Tati. It threw me open into a different world all together. I would have never seen this world. So he involved me in a lot of projects. I worked a lot with these locals [00:37:00] and then I realized, goodness, they’re awesome people. And then I realized, then I felt a lot for the kind of social issues, economic issues, political issues that they were going through.

[00:37:12] Mandy Gupta: And so I got involved in the development sector. This German guy I was working with, he was With a part of GIZ group, which is a company called AGEHA NGO. So he exposed me to this conflict management world and I started working with him. Then he sent me to Austria for a lot of programs to do on conflict management, conflict resolution.

[00:37:35] Mandy Gupta: That was another, what do I say, cultural shock or cultural learning. So when I go there, I actually meet people from all the conflict countries, all these countries like Sudan, South Sudan, uh, Palestine, uh, Syria, uh, Afghanistan, Pakistan. I mean, you know, and then you hear their [00:38:00] stories, just so different from what, you know, I have spent all my life and the learning was bigger from talking with them than from the classroom.

[00:38:14] Mandy Gupta: The classrooms were amazing, the professors were amazing, but what I learned from talking to them and Tati, that was a big learning. I was, you know, I was naive in a way, in the sense, I love Dubai. So my, Exposure to life was Oh, God, Dubai is so fantastic. It’s amazing. It’s hedonistic way of life. Everybody should be in that bubble once in a while.

[00:38:39] Mandy Gupta: So I would go right to everybody and say, Hey, have you been to Dubai? You must go and see Dubai. You must live through Dubai experience in Dubai. And even in Kenya, after I went to Austria for this program, I was carrying that message. Hey, guys, you guys have come from these different countries. How do you say?

[00:38:55] Mandy Gupta: I’ve come from Dubai and Dubai is fantastic. And then I saw the reactions. No, [00:39:00] Dubai in the international world has a different perception because of a lot of. Because they don’t know the good side of Dubai. Maybe every, every side has different aspects. So it was more known as, you know, probably labor laws were not great.

[00:39:16] Mandy Gupta: It’s just not entirely true. I mean, I haven’t lived in Dubai, so I know it’s not entirely true, but I don’t want to get into that, uh, debate, but it was perceived as a lot of place where human rights were not really. Probably respected completely. And to people from Syria, Yemen, where there were Borton refugees floating in the water, you think they were interested in knowing about, uh, hedonism and beautiful life in Dubai.

[00:39:44] Mandy Gupta: I was not insensitive. I was nine. I was sharing my experience. in exchange of their experience. And the fact that the experiences are not matching, maybe it didn’t strike me that you see each individual is different. Your perception, your interaction will be [00:40:00] different from mine with someone else. So to me, it didn’t make any difference that there.

[00:40:05] Mandy Gupta: Their experience they were sharing was different. I was happy to share mine and listen to theirs. I did not understand my communication is going off completely. Like here the Syrian is saying, my God, the refugees, I mean, we are going through a horrible time. Yemen is saying I have to run away when this bomb blast happened.

[00:40:24] Mandy Gupta: And then Palestine saying I grew up in refugee tents. Mandy, what do you know about that? And here I’m saying, Oh my God, you must go and see the Uh, you know, the hotels and you must see the, uh, you know, the, uh, the rotating restaurant and you must want to see the fantastic hotels. I mean, what are you talking about?

[00:40:45] Mandy Gupta: It didn’t strike me because somewhere I was probably silly or naive, but that learning was, uh, some guys were honest enough to tell me, I think you should. understand what you’re saying is not cutting much ice with us because we [00:41:00] so, you know, we played a lot of games in this program, and I’m very grateful to these facilitators.

[00:41:06] Mandy Gupta: They somehow managed to get all of us in the class of I think, there were 2025 participants, all of us to interact through a lot of games and feedback each other personally. And, uh, that helped a lot. Each one’s feedback on perception of others. We could correct ourselves. So coming back to your point, that was the biggest learning.

[00:41:30] Mandy Gupta: I wouldn’t say cultural shock. That is my biggest learning in my life. I, I, the way I grew up in Kenya, I don’t think growing up is just not adding years. I don’t know. I grew up. I did not get sadder. You know, it’s not that I saw this part of life and I became sad. No, I saw life. I saw life in Kenya. I saw life because this German, uh, organization and this gentleman gave me an opportunity to [00:42:00] See what was happening and send me for these programs at this conflict management program at Austria.

[00:42:06] Mandy Gupta: ASPR, there’s a castle where they have the program. It’s called a Peace Castle. I was humbled beyond anything. I didn’t know what life was really till I met these people. And I, I am a different person today, Tati. I’m a very happy person still, but I’m a very different human. Today, if I see any piece of news on the TV, where, like when I’m watching an Ethiopia news on what’s happening in, uh, uh, in the northern part of Ethiopia, uh, I don’t watch just the news.

[00:42:42] Mandy Gupta: I, I know what’s happening there. I do, I am not able to just watch it as a news. I can have sleepless nights, sleepless nights, and I can think of what can I do in a small way. So I’m a very different human being today. And I’m not unhappy for that. I’m happier and I’m, [00:43:00] because I feel I actually have understood that life is very different for different people.

[00:43:06] Mandy Gupta: It’s, it’s, everybody knows that on paper, but to feel it is different. It’s different. Yeah. This time guy told me, uh, you know, there was a feedback session, Daddy. on each other. So this guy came and told me, Mandy, you’re very, uh, fun loving. You’re very happy. You’re very jolly. Uh, everyone thinks that’s great about it, but I think that’s, you’re a fake.

[00:43:30] Mandy Gupta: I think you’re fake. You’re putting it all on. So I was just taken aback. I said, okay, um, No, I’m, uh, I said, No, I’m not angry. I said, I’m sorry. I’m sorry if I upset you. He said, I said, No, you’re not. Because why should I, you know, I’m a changed person. I’m appreciating an honest feedback. That’s what you felt.

[00:43:51] Mandy Gupta: And then if I may tell you my journey. And your journey gets so far apart. I don’t blame you. You grew up in a refugee [00:44:00] tent. Your family was all the people staying in the tent. And like you’re saying, each refugee tent is not friendly with the other refugee tent. Even there you have friction. I did not grow up with any friction anywhere.

[00:44:12] Mandy Gupta: So what is my exposure to life? It’s what is my understanding? I’m so happy I’m able to see through your lens. I’m really happy or… Tati, I’m so great, I’m so grateful to life that it took me to Kenya and

[00:44:26] Taty Fittipaldi: let me ask you something. So after these people, for example, the person who said that, you know, you’re fake or your smile is fake. After he got to know you better. Was his perception changed.

[00:44:41] Mandy Gupta: Well, he did come and speak to me after two, three days, and he had a long session. We had a very nice session through past midnight. He was in a way explaining why he said that, which I thought it was his way of apologizing. He did not say sorry, but he said, you know, Mandy, you understand where I’m coming from.

[00:44:58] Mandy Gupta: And I [00:45:00] was trying to tell him desperately in many ways that I am good with it. You see, these are people. Who, uh, some of these people were very scarred. So you couldn’t go out to them and hold their hands and say, Hey, listen, I understand what you say. I’m sorry. They will withdraw. Those are the things I learned at that conflict management program.

[00:45:20] Mandy Gupta: There are different human beings that come from different places. So if I go very boisterously and say, Hey, I understand. He just back off, you know, what you understood. I don’t know what you want. So I didn’t want to make it that way, but I knew when he was chatting with me, um, late hours of the night, exchanging his experience that he wanted to tell me more.

[00:45:39] Mandy Gupta: So it was this way of explaining where he came from. And I was trying to explain to him where I came from. So we parted very, I think, very affectionately. But, um, yeah, I, I learned a lot. I don’t know what he learned, but I learned a lot.

[00:45:55] Taty Fittipaldi: And I think by exposing ourselves and having these new [00:46:00] perspectives is exactly how we grow, right? We grow by exposing ourselves to different things.

[00:46:05] Mandy Gupta: Yes, yes, yes, Tati, absolutely. As I said, I’m telling you, I’m a very changed person. And that’s thanks to Kenya. Thanks to the kind of life I got exposed to by this German guy. I’m very grateful to him. And of course, then I was doing my own programs. I got involved with a lot of local NGOs.

[00:46:24] Mandy Gupta: There where I did programs, I worked with the community. I launched my own advocacy program on human trafficking, uh, to create a awareness against human trafficking because there a lot of people in Africa being duped, uh, by, you know, by fake recruiting agents promising them jobs in Europe, in the Middle East, and they were being tortured.

[00:46:48] Mandy Gupta: It goes on, this business is on for a long time, but in 2017, I think it was, it was a very horrific thing that happened that they were all taken to Libya, mostly Nigerians and [00:47:00] people from North Africa, West Africa, and they were being promised jobs in the Europe. And then they couldn’t go there because that time EU closed the border of Mediterranean.

[00:47:10] Mandy Gupta: And then they started selling this Africans in Libya across the table through auctions and this was selling them for organs, body organs, and you can imagine I don’t need to exaggerate that if you’re being sold against your wish for your body organ, that’s not what you, that’s not, uh,

[00:47:30] Taty Fittipaldi: you’re actually, you know, thinking that you’re going to improve your life, right?

[00:47:35] Taty Fittipaldi: And then you want to do, yeah.

[00:47:36] Mandy Gupta: If I want to sell my organ or donate my organ, yes, yes, it is permissible, it’s noble, and there’s a way of doing it, not forcibly, so it was horrific. And CNN was the only one who covered it initially. Libya was not a very friendly place to go in for anyone. It was, I had sleepless nights.

[00:47:55] Mandy Gupta: So I actually started a program and I thought if I could just make [00:48:00] children, youth, uh, aware that these things happen. That’s all we can do at a smaller level. Everybody cannot go and rescue the people. Why can’t we stop it at the initial level? And that comes with knowledge. Think of that. Prevention is better than cure.

[00:48:14] Mandy Gupta: Why are these things happening for complete ignorance? So let’s educate the children, the youth. So I actually went to the slum schools. I did a lot of creative workshops. I went to the churches, spoke to the youth. Kenya is very religious. They have, A lot of, uh, people assembling at the church regularly. So interfaith, uh, groups work well.

[00:48:37] Mandy Gupta: So I was doing that. I took, I took the program to Uganda. It was a very gratifying program, Tati, because when I used to lead the program, uh, the children, even the young boys and girls would have done work with. Who have done work, they would all say, come back, Mandy, thank you for doing this for us in the country.

[00:48:55] Mandy Gupta: We did not know. I used to get so many WhatsApp messages. It was very [00:49:00] rewarding. You know, you can’t change the world, but you can change the world for one person. It’s, there’s a saying, and it’s really true. If you can change the world for one person somewhere. So, well, I would like to believe that. It’s touched a few lives and that’s all we can do.

[00:49:18] Mandy Gupta: And then of course, um, I returned to India after a stay of 27 years outside the country. And to me, India is like now, uh, I feel like a tourist in my own country. India has changed also in many good ways. And you know, it’s changed. Every place changes. It doesn’t stop when you leave. So, uh, I’m adjusting to India now.

[00:49:43] Mandy Gupta: I’m loving it. Beautiful country. So I started because

[00:49:48] Taty Fittipaldi: I tell this to people. Right? When you live so many years in a different place, and then you come back to your country, you are you repatriate to your country. It’s almost [00:50:00] like an expatriation. Right? It’s interesting that you’re mentioning, because I talked to other people who also repatriated and they said the same thing.

[00:50:09] Taty Fittipaldi: I’m adjusting. I know it’s my own country, but I’m still adjusting. So I, I’m glad you brought this… brought this up.

[00:50:15] Mandy Gupta: Yeah, but it’s a beautiful country and it’s I am enjoying it. So, um, right now I’ve started a mental health program where I’m trying to talk to people and trying to create table dialogues. On creating awareness on mental health, but mental health is also health and there is no stigma attached to it that, you know, you cannot discuss it or disclose it.

[00:50:39] Mandy Gupta: It’s a big thing now, Tati. It’s becoming a very big, it was always there for some time, but people were not addressing it. It’s almost in every home with teenagers, with the spouses, with the partners, but you don’t address it. And now with. The last two years of lockdown [00:51:00] pandemic, it’s become, it’s taken another, another perspective, totally.

[00:51:05] Mandy Gupta: So, so you see, you see even among the latest players, Dennis player, Osaka, this is last interview that I had with Manny. Osaka, Osaka was Naomi Osaka. She had a mental health issue and they were so unforgiving the, uh, organizers of the tennis. I mean, it’s unbelievable that Roger Federer, he walked away from the tournament without paying a fine because he said he’s got a physical knee problem.

[00:51:32] Mandy Gupta: And Naomi Osaka said, I have an anxiety problem. And the only thing she didn’t want to do was talk to the press. I mean, come on, a good player, mental health is, you have to respect mental health. Anyway, so that’s one of the examples. There are many such mental health issues which are not getting addressed, not being understood.

[00:51:50] Mandy Gupta: So I started that um, online program now and I will be happy, you know, Tati, if you can help me even promote this dialogue with your, uh, [00:52:00] with your talk shows. Because it reaches every home and every heart. And believe me, I had over 60, 65 people attending that program on Zoom. That clearly shows how many people were interested in the topic.

[00:52:14] Taty Fittipaldi: Yes, it’s a topic that’s becoming very talked about, especially in the pandemic. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And Mandy, tell me something. What did you learn with all, if you could say one word in one word, what did you learn with all these expatriation experiences that you had?

[00:52:36] Mandy Gupta: Empathy,

[00:52:37] Mandy Gupta: very different from sympathy, very different from knowledge, very different to what, when it’s just used to write an essays.

[00:52:48] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s a good word. Yes, absolutely. And as we said, we get exposed to different perspectives, to different people, to different backgrounds, and we start to understand [00:53:00] and that’s why we can empathize. If we never get exposed, we will never be able to empathize, right?

[00:53:06] Mandy Gupta: Correct.

[00:53:07] Mandy Gupta: Absolutely. What you don’t know, you don’t know. What you don’t see, you don’t feel. You know, for example, when I started the slave trade campaign in Kenya, I was not, I was doing my workshop in the slums, but I did my campaign in the, um, in residential, proper residential areas and supermarkets. Everybody was surprised.

[00:53:28] Mandy Gupta: What are you seeing? Slave trade. Slave trade. Yes, slave trade. It’s happening now. Slavery is not over. And people who stop to hear me, stop to think, stop to come and show and walks, we have organized walks. They’re related. They contributed money. So you see, before this, You can’t, you know, you cannot expect everyone to know everything from media or programming.

[00:53:58] Mandy Gupta: Why is it not in our face in the [00:54:00] media? It’s not in our, it was, it’s not there in everyday news. So certain things you have to feel to understand, you have to see to know. Yeah, of course. I’m grateful. I’m grateful to life.

[00:54:11] Taty Fittipaldi: Absolutely. No, I agree with you. I totally hear you. So thank you so much for sharing this story. I really appreciate and thank you so much for being here, for sharing all the stories, for all your candid experiences, you shared it without filters. So thank you so much for being so honest, for being so you, so authentic. Thank you so much.

[00:54:37] Mandy Gupta: Thank you, Tati. It was a complete pleasure to be on your show. I treasure this discussion as much as you do.

[00:54:45] Taty Fittipaldi: Thank you.

[00:54:46]

[00:54:48] HIGHLIGHTS

[00:54:48] Taty Fittipaldi: This brings us to the end of this Leadership Nest episode. I trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your decisions and performance in critical global leadership roles [00:55:00] and situations. Stay tuned for a next joy ride with expatriates interview! We promise to surprise you with new stories and concepts to help you learn more about international relocation, acclimation and cultural integrations.

[00:55:15] Taty Fittipaldi: Wherever you are in the globe, this is Taty Fittipaldi wishing you a beautiful day.

[00:55:20] Taty Fittipaldi: If you have any questions, you’d like us to answer in a future episode of this show, just go to speakpipe.com/tatyfittipaldi or click the link in the show notes, to leave us a brief audio message.

[00:55:38] Taty Fittipaldi: Make sure to visit us on our website www.theleadershipnest.com, where you can subscribe to our show anywhere podcasts are streamed, so you never miss the fun.

[00:55:51] Taty Fittipaldi: While there, if you find value in our show, you can also subscribe to our global leadership weekly newsletter from Coaching [00:56:00] Expatriates®, where we deliver bite-sized lessons on global leadership, decision-making, and cultural competence to help you learn how to think, relate and strategize in a whole different way as a global leader.

[00:56:13] Taty Fittipaldi: If you liked our show, you might want to check our online global executive leadership program. A nine week leadership development and learning system, that will help you lead internationally while making financially conscious and impactful business decisions.

[00:56:29] Taty Fittipaldi: Taty Fittipaldi is also available for private coaching. See the websites for more details at www.coachingexpatriates.com/executive-coaching.

[00:56:41] Taty Fittipaldi: Thanks for joining us this week on The Leadership Nest podcast. I trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your performance in critical global leadership roles and situations.

[00:56:54]