S2 EP018 | Joyride With Expatriates – How US Army Bases Abroad Look Like?

[00:00:00] INTRODUCTION

[00:00:00]

[00:00:05] Taty Fittipaldi: Hello and welcome to The Leadership Nest podcast. This is season two of the global leadership podcast that combines stories, knowledge and science to soar the leadership in you. I’m your host Taty Fittipaldi. During this season, we invited 20 different expatriates from around the world to share their stories, their learning journeys, and their tips to make you a better leader and an inspired person. You can also watch the live interviews on our YouTube channel! Search for Coaching Expatriates® channel, then select the playlist called Joyride With Expatriates.

[00:00:43] Taty Fittipaldi: In today’s episode, we’ll talk with Steve Douglas, who was born in the U. S., and has stories to tell how it is like to be deployed abroad by the U. S. Army. Here is his story.

[00:00:59] JOYRIDE WITH AN EXPATRIATE

(This section’s transcript was AI-generated and may contain errors)

[00:00:59] Taty Fittipaldi: [00:01:00] Steve, welcome to our show. It’s so good to have you here. Thank you so much for coming.

[00:01:05] Steve Douglas: Well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. This is, uh, this is a great thrill for me.

[00:01:10] Taty Fittipaldi: Thank you. So I am really excited as I told you offline. I’m really excited because you relocated with the military, and that’s a big difference between corporations and relocations with the corporate.

[00:01:24] Taty Fittipaldi: So, tell a little bit about what do you see as difference between relocating as a military and relocating as an executive, for example?

[00:01:33] Steve Douglas: Well, thank you. Yeah. That’s a great question.

[00:01:35] Steve Douglas: In the military, the, the military community is geared towards, um relocation. Every, you know, when, um, orders to your transfer o the, that’s the start of your, your, your work day to, I’m [00:02:00] moving my househo duty station. Um, and the The infrastructure exists there. So let’s take, for example, if you’re relocating to, um, another country, then You the process of moving your household goods is and your family is pretty much the same as if you’re relocating in the States.

[00:02:24] Steve Douglas: However, when you get to your new duty location, your new duty station, um, There’s no mystery as far as where medical your medical treatment facilities are, where you’re going to buy your groceries. Um, you don’t have to worry about, um, how you’re going to pay for, you know, Your medicines and that kind of thing.

[00:02:48] Steve Douglas: It’s all taken care of now.

[00:02:52] Taty Fittipaldi: It makes sense. It’s in the base.

[00:02:55] Steve Douglas: Yes. Or, you know, exactly where it’s going to be. And, and [00:03:00] when you get to your new duty station, your, um, your unit has assigned a sponsor to you, someone who’s lived, um, that is another service and they’re going to help you, you know, um,

[00:03:16] Taty Fittipaldi: Like a mentor kind of thing.

[00:03:17] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh,

[00:03:17] Steve Douglas: that’s

[00:03:18] Taty Fittipaldi: great. Yeah, they’re

[00:03:19] Steve Douglas: going to give you a heads up on all that stuff. Now, there is a, that ease of access does have a downside. And that is, it makes it too easy for people to not go out and explore a new culture.

[00:03:35] Taty Fittipaldi: Integrate.

[00:03:36] Steve Douglas: Yeah, there are. And you know, it’s which I I feel it’s kind of a shame because I I know of, um, of service members and their families that no, I don’t want to go out.

[00:03:48] Steve Douglas: I’m just gonna I’m gonna gonna spend all my time on post. And I’m thinking, well, that’s that’s kind of a shame, but it’s it’s very possible that you can do that. So, you know, I yeah. [00:04:00] I think it’s really, you know, that makes it nice for, you know, service members. The challenge becomes, um, for our civilian counterparts, because when you, you know, find out that you, you are going to an expat assignment, you really, it’s not really clear.

[00:04:21] Steve Douglas: I’ve heard stories where, um, expats have, the company has, uh, provided, Oh yeah, we’ll find a place for you to live. Okay. Well, what about the other services? Oh, yeah. Well, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll find you a place to live and then we’ll worry about that when you get there. Well, That’s kind of difficult because, you know, unless you are fluent in the language that there’s going to be a problem.

[00:04:50] Steve Douglas: Where do you buy your groceries? Where do you get medical, you know, treatment? Um, how do you, you know, how do you drive? Is there, are there things [00:05:00] that you need to be concerned with? So that, that I see as being the big difference because where relocation for expats is, they’re kind of the exception rather than in the military where that’s part of, you know, that’s part of the being in the military.

[00:05:19] Steve Douglas: You’re going to receive orders, you’re going to a new duty location. And the, the interesting part is whether you go to a, a, an, An overseas or, you know, we call it Oconus for outside of continental United States, whether it’s a Oconus move or a Conus move. When you get to your new unit, you still have a sponsor that’s going to help you because there are some differences and, you know, hey, you know, the, the, the post hospital, you know, that’s that you have to go to this location.

[00:05:54] Steve Douglas: If you’re, you know, for, for, um, You know, immediate care. Okay. So [00:06:00] those are the little things, but they’re still there to help you transition into your new location. So I think that’s an important, an important difference. But that’s also one way that companies can help is make sure there’s somebody on the other side.

[00:06:15] Steve Douglas: And we’ll talk about that here in a little bit.

[00:06:19] Taty Fittipaldi: And Steve, one question. So, these other people, so the hospitals, the grocery, these other people that work and helped in the transition, are they also in the military or they’re contractors from abroad, how does that work?

[00:06:34] Steve Douglas: Yes. To all of the above that chances are they are retirees.

[00:06:38] Steve Douglas: military retirees. They are dependents. Um, you know, wives, husbands of service members, their Children. Um, and there are some folks that are local. That, you know, from the host nation and they all speak English. So that’s, you know, that’s another thing when you go to, [00:07:00] you know, the hospital, because, you know, you’re taking your, your little one sick at two o’clock in the morning, you don’t have to worry about the language barrier because there.

[00:07:11] Steve Douglas: all of the medical treatment, you know, the staff is, they speak English, they’re Americans. Um, and that’s the same way when you go to the grocery store. So you might be able to purchase some of the unique food items from, you know, that country, which is a cool thing. However, you can ask somebody, so what is this?

[00:07:33] Steve Douglas: Whereas an expat can go into a grocery store and go, I have no idea what I’m shopping

[00:07:39] Taty Fittipaldi: for.

[00:07:40] Steve Douglas: I can’t read a label. So that’s, that’s, that’s a big challenge right there. So great question.

[00:07:48] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, that’s so interesting. And do you guys know beforehand how long the expatriation will happen or so we’re going to be deployed for two years, three years, [00:08:00] or… Do you know this up front or how does it work?

[00:08:02] Steve Douglas: Yes. Um, when you go to an overseas assignment, um, and it depends upon the location. Um, if you’re, if you are accompanied, in other words, you’re, you’re moving your, your dependents with you, uh, and you’re going to Europe, it’s going to be. Now this might’ve changed. Um, but based upon when I was in, it was expected that you were going to spend three years, In, uh, you know, over in, in, in Europe, wherever that is, Italy, Germany, wherever, um, if you were unaccompanied going into Germany, you were going to be there, I believe it was two years, and if you went to Korea unaccompanied, it was one year, but, um, that is Well, there’s some some caveats to that.

[00:08:49] Steve Douglas: But overall, you know, you’re going to be you have a pretty good idea of how long you’re going to be at your overseas location. Yes.

[00:08:59] Taty Fittipaldi: And [00:09:00] how do you think this can impact your willingness or openness to integrate locally? By knowing that, well, I’ll, you know, I’ll go back in three years anyway.

[00:09:10] Steve Douglas: A lot of people, you know, not everybody is, wants to stay sequestered on post. They want to go out and they want to visit. An awful lot of times people will Have a strong desire, as we called it, live on the economy. And that is you are, you are not in military housing. You are living in the community and you know, you are, it’s a, it’s a full on experience.

[00:09:35] Steve Douglas: You still have, you know, all of the, the, the, the nice things, you know, medical treatment, English speaking, yep. All of that support is there. However, you’re going to have a, you know, a host nation landlord. And you’re going to have host nation, um, neighbors and they may or may not like [00:10:00] Americans. And so it’s, you know, you’re going to, you’re going to have a full, full experience on that one.

[00:10:07] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s interesting!

[00:10:08] Steve Douglas: And a lot of, a lot of people say, yep, I love it. That’s the only way I’m going to go. And a lot of people will, you know, they’ll. They’ll go to Germany and they have the opportunity. They, they fall in love with the country. They fall in love with the people. They’ll come back to the United States, you know, have a, a CONUS assignment for three years, and then they’ll say, you know what, send me back.

[00:10:33] Steve Douglas: I want to go there. And there’s some folks that say, you know what? Um, I’ve got a couple of minutes, you know, I’ve got, I’ve got a couple more months and I’m going to be retiring. So I’m staying right here. And so that, that happens.

[00:10:46] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah. That’s really interesting.

[00:10:48] Steve Douglas: So that’s, yeah, that’s part of it. So, yeah.

[00:10:52] Taty Fittipaldi: So, you had international deployments with the military and we talked offline that now you are working on your PhD [00:11:00] for, you know, with organizational culture. Tell us a little bit about that and why do you think this is important? Why did you decide to focus on that for your PhD?

[00:11:11] Steve Douglas: You bet. Um, there was, uh, uh, a Brazilian company that I heard about when I was in grad school. It was called Simcoe or Grupo Simcoe. And I found it interesting because they had, uh, self directed work teams. And as I did a little research on the company, um, I thought to myself, well, a company just doesn’t announce one day, Oh, we’re going to have self directed work groups.

[00:11:42] Steve Douglas: And I started asking myself, okay, so what was in the local culture that allowed that, that transition to occur? Because the company, you know, you would expect self directed, oh, that, [00:12:00] that’s not going to go well. They prospered and they’ve diversified. So they were just manufacturing repair parts for ocean going vessels.

[00:12:09] Steve Douglas: Now they’re in, last I saw, uh, Um, like financial services. So it was it was very, very impressive. And I thought, Well, what was it that allowed that to happen? And then I started looking at organizations and and saying, Okay, so why do some Corporations. Why, why can they do that? How do they work with the, with the local culture, especially when it comes time for foreign acquisitions or mergers?

[00:12:40] Steve Douglas: And so that’s really what, what prompted my research and my research question is how do, how does a multinational corporation instill their organizational culture into a foreign subsidiary? And I’m doing that from the perspective of expatriate. [00:13:00] Managers, because you know, they’re, they’re going to have an understanding of the, the, the company’s culture, which, and, and in my definition, it is, uh, uh, is shared learning.

[00:13:15] Steve Douglas: It’s not, it goes so much deeper than, well, that’s how we do business. No culture is shared learning that works well enough that that’s what you pass along to other people. Okay. Well, when you have a manager that goes to another country. Well, sometimes the organizational culture doesn’t, that won’t mix well with the, with the, with the, the, the host nation employees.

[00:13:42] Steve Douglas: So how do they do that? And so, you know, my perspective is so the, the leader member exchange between the expatriate manager and the local employees, as well as the exchange between the [00:14:00] expat manager and their employees. Their boss back in the United States.

[00:14:05] Taty Fittipaldi: Yes, back in the headquarter. Yep.

[00:14:07] Steve Douglas: Back at the, back at the headquarters.

[00:14:09] Steve Douglas: And so, you know, I’m looking at that and I’m going, Oh, well, that’s kind of interesting. Um, there are some dynamics that happen there where it’s, you know, you can’t just look at an expat and say, Oh, um, well, but they’re, but they’re a manager and they’re going to be happy there. Not necessarily. So I’m, you know, that’s, that’s where I’m really interested in is, is there what level of, of support does an expat manager need to have so that they can be successful when they are?

[00:14:45] Steve Douglas: Yep. So, and so I’m looking at it from that perspective, as well as the stakeholders. You know, the, the local employees as well as, you know, other individuals, you know, the government, um, [00:15:00] what, you know, the people that you need to interact with to, to be successful in that assignment. So that’s, you know, that’s kind of the framework that I’m looking at, because a lot of, well, there’s a high probability that an, a merger or an acquisition is not going to be as, it’s not going to return the investment.

[00:15:23] Steve Douglas: Um, that they’re hoping for. There’s an 83, about 80 percent chance that that’s not going to happen. And there’s about a 50 percent chance that it’s actually going to lose money. And the biggest, the biggest contributor, during a

[00:15:39] Taty Fittipaldi: time frame or overall, you mean?

[00:15:41] Steve Douglas: Yeah, overall. So, you know, and when, you know, when you have, um, well, and the biggest contributing factor is culture.

[00:15:52] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, that’s interesting.

[00:15:54] Steve Douglas: So, you know, I’m looking at, well, you have to have a

[00:15:58] Taty Fittipaldi: cultural clash between the merger. [00:16:00] I see.

[00:16:01] Steve Douglas: Yes. Because, you know, in the United States, we have that, that attitude of, oh, well, come on, we, we speak English. They speak English. So this will be easy. No, it’s not because there are there you know what English are we going to speak.

[00:16:18] Steve Douglas: That was a as a matter of fact there’s a research article by that title what what what English shall we speak, because if you think about the different dialects and idioms. that are out there. It’s, you know, it’s, well, watch a, watch a TV show from, um, the United Kingdom and compare the language that you hear there, or even Scotland.

[00:16:43] Steve Douglas: One of my favorite, um, comedies is from Scotland. And if you don’t understand it, it’s, well, Ooh, well, they’re speaking English. They grew up speaking. So what English are we going to speak? So that becomes the challenge and it’s, it’s, [00:17:00] it’s ever so much more than just the language. It is the, um, communication effectiveness, not language fluency, because you can be very fluent in the language.

[00:17:12] Steve Douglas: But you still miss the subtle

[00:17:14] Taty Fittipaldi: nuances, right? There, every place has their nuances, even if it’s the same language, more so if it’s a different language.

[00:17:22] Steve Douglas: Yes, very much. So, so

[00:17:25] Taty Fittipaldi: for the benefit of our audience, can you help them understand what organizational culture is, how it’s formed… regardless of the expatriation aspect, but in general. How cultures are formed so that they can connect the dots between what you just said and organizational culture.

[00:17:45] Steve Douglas: You betcha. Organizational culture is, well, it’s that shared learning. And anytime you get two people together, you’re going to create a culture. And so the [00:18:00] culture is what gets rewarded. And what gets punished. And sometimes there’s a big disconnect between, you know, the, the, the stated values and the vision of a company, they might, you know, they might promote, hey, we’ve got, we’ve got great values here.

[00:18:18] Steve Douglas: But if you look at it. It was an organization that I used to work for that they promoted, Hey, we take care of the customer, but their actions were contrary to that. And they got in some big trouble.

[00:18:30] Taty Fittipaldi: So the spirit and the latter were kind of different.

[00:18:34] Steve Douglas: Very much different. And, and one of my favorite authors, uh, Edgar shine on organizational, um, culture, he identifies the difference between the espoused values, what we.

[00:18:46] Steve Douglas: Like to say that we believe is true and then, uh, the basic underlying assumptions and the basic underlying assumptions is how we actually do things. So, yes, we make a big deal out of [00:19:00] our vision and values. However, in actuality, eh. Not so much. So that’s why it’s very, very important that there is congruency between, you know, what the espoused values and the basic underlying assumptions.

[00:19:19] Steve Douglas: Um, you’ll also get as, as part of a, a, a sub part of organizational cultures is the climate. And I like to think of that as like the, the microclimate that exists. Um, like in a rainforest because the, the, the forest or even in Iowa, Iowa, we have a lot of corn and the corn actually influences the weather because of transpiration.

[00:19:48] Steve Douglas: The moisture gets drawn up through the plant and it, it, it, It goes into the atmosphere, and so it actually influences the weather. Well, the same thing happens [00:20:00] within an organization because, yes, you can have a great culture in one location, but going away from that, the, you know, the impact of management is huge on culture.

[00:20:17] Steve Douglas: And so that will also affect the climate. So you can have a great culture. But the climate of a particular organization are, you know, particular location is not good because you’ve got poor leadership or poor management. So

[00:20:34] Taty Fittipaldi: this is a good segue to my next question. So we talked about organizational culture and you define a little bit about that.

[00:20:43] Taty Fittipaldi: So, from your perspective, when we Get the expatriates abroad in an international assignment, how they can instill the same cultural values from the headquarter, but at the same time adapt [00:21:00] correctly in, in the local country. Right?

[00:21:03] Steve Douglas: Well, the, the first thing is the, the expat needs to have, um, Needs to have their the trust of their boss.

[00:21:13] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, that’s

[00:21:13] Steve Douglas: that’s absolutely huge because There are some things that in the the local culture that don’t Align with the way things are done back home. I’m reminded of What happened in Brazil? Um, with, uh, Henry Ford and Fordlandia back, uh, about 100 and I want to say about 120 years ago, Ford bought a large, you know, a huge tract of land and wanted to open up, uh, a manufacturer.

[00:21:46] Steve Douglas: Be able to, to, uh, develop rubber and wood for his, for cars and also open up a new market. Well, Henry Ford wanted to do things just the way he did them back in [00:22:00] Michigan. Well, that didn’t work well for the locals down in Brazil because You know, they don’t work during the heat of the day, like

[00:22:10] Taty Fittipaldi: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:11] Taty Fittipaldi: It’s over a hundred degrees. It’s just, it’s impossible.

[00:22:16] Steve Douglas: And it did. And, and, you know, Ford was not going to have anything to do with that. I don’t care what temperature it is. We’re going to do things just the way we did back in the United States. Well, that you, if you can’t appreciate and adapt The local culture, that’s where the spirit of the organizational culture comes into play.

[00:22:38] Steve Douglas: Because a lot of times it’s like, well, we have a great work ethic. We’re just not going to do it in the same way that they do back.

[00:22:47] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, so I think it sounds like you’re saying you can keep your goals and you can keep your vision and your objective, but the way and the format of how things [00:23:00] will be implemented or deployed might be different and we have to adapt based on localization.

[00:23:07] Steve Douglas: Yes. As a matter of fact, I, in, in one of my classes, my doc classes, um, I did, I interviewed some expats and I’m hoping that I can, I can call upon their, their good nature again. And I, it was interesting that. Um, the differences in meetings. Um, the time, the concept of time for some, for some countries is not the same as in the United States.

[00:23:35] Steve Douglas: And so, um, knowing that, I said, so, so how did you arrange that when you have a meeting with, with the bosses back? In the United States, and you also have to have a meeting, you know, with your with your team down in Brazil, he says, Well, what we do is I would always schedule the, uh, the meeting [00:24:00] for my, my, my local team.

[00:24:02] Steve Douglas: I do that first. And then I would ensure that there was enough time so that we could go through the, the small talk that was so, so very, very important that the relational dynamics of that. So then he would, you know, if it was going to be an hour meeting, he would schedule his local meeting three hours ahead of.

[00:24:25] Steve Douglas: The, the, the, the meeting with the U S team, that way he knew everybody would be there. They would have, you know,

[00:24:32] Taty Fittipaldi: smart. Yeah. I see a lot of leaders doing that. They have like a span for the entire meeting and then they bring up the teams depending on where the location is and how they need to have this relational Aspect before.

[00:24:48] Taty Fittipaldi: So they basically focus first on bringing the teams that are high context before, and then they schedule in the same meeting, it’s the same meeting, but they say everyone from Brazil, Argentina, [00:25:00] Mexico, they’re going to be at 10 AM and people from Europe, for example, they’re going to be at 10 30.

[00:25:06] Taty Fittipaldi: And so they jump in. So, so I saw a lot of people doing that nowadays. Yeah.

[00:25:11] Steve Douglas: And that’s, I think that’s very, very important. And also understand. You know, um, in the United States, we, we do a lot of, well, we’re going to bring the whole team together and we’re going to brainstorm. Well, that works well here.

[00:25:29] Steve Douglas: It’s also important to appreciate, you know, expat managers, um, need to appreciate that there are some cultures where the boss is, well, you’re supposed to know that. And. We’re, we, we don’t brainstorm on that. Um, you know, that’s, that’s just not how we do things. Okay. Well, you know, you, so you don’t surprise people and, and say, Hey, we’re going to get together and we’re going to brainstorm.

[00:25:58] Steve Douglas: No, what you do is you find [00:26:00] out who the center of influence is. And then you say, um, you know, Your team is going to come up with some ideas on this. Let them work it out. Let them develop that those ideas. Then when you come together, the manager can say, tell me what you tell me what you have so that you know, you’re you don’t put people on the spot.

[00:26:27] Steve Douglas: And once again, it’s, you know, it works great in the United States. But, you know, You’re not in, you’re not in

[00:26:33] Taty Fittipaldi: every place. That’s true. And depending on the culture, sometimes, it’s not expected for you to say you will wait until your manager says something, right? You don’t voice your opinions depending on the culture. You wait for them, and if they ask you specifically, then you say something, right? So the dynamics in each country, it’s very different.

[00:26:56] Steve Douglas: And that’s where the cultural appreciation comes into play. [00:27:00] You know, it is, you know, again, somebody, you know, an expat going to a new country doesn’t have to be, you know, doesn’t have to have a perfect understanding of that culture.

[00:27:13] Steve Douglas: What they do need to have is an appreciation that guess what? It’s different from the way you were raised. So take a step back. Look, observe, listen, watch for those dynamics, and ask questions.

[00:27:31] Taty Fittipaldi: Absolutely, ask questions is key. I agree, totally agree, yeah. And not making assumptions too, right? Because sometimes it’s so easy for us to make assumptions based on our perception of how things work in our home country, right?

[00:27:47] Steve Douglas: Correct, yes. And you know, that’s, that’s a good point. When you, there are some cultures that they, they like to please. And so they will say, Oh yes, we can do [00:28:00] that. We can do that. Knowing full well, that it, that it’s not going to be

[00:28:04] Taty Fittipaldi: possible.

[00:28:05] Steve Douglas: Yeah. It’s like, okay, well. But, you know, and, and, but if you understand that, and also, you know, it’s like, um, following up, that’s, that’s considered a key, you know, key management technique in the United States.

[00:28:22] Steve Douglas: Well, there are some cultures, like, Well, over in Germany, you don’t trust me. I told you that I was going to do that.

[00:28:30] Taty Fittipaldi: And in Germany, if you say something, you’re committed to it, right? It’s set in stone. If you said that, it’s a done deal. And if you doubt… it’s they become really offended because it’s very hard to see a German going back on their commitments, right? So yeah, so I yeah, I totally agree. Yeah.

[00:28:51] Steve Douglas: So that’s you know, once again, it is. You know, communication effectiveness that you [00:29:00] know of, please. And thank you. You know, I, I’ve traveled, you know, for, for the military as well as, um, personal travel, and I, I, I learned two, you know, two phrases, two words or two phrases.

[00:29:17] Steve Douglas: And they’re very important. And most people say, well, oh, well what’s that? Go? Where’s the bathroom? No. that It is, it is, please. And thank you. How, how you say please and thank you are, that opens so many doors. Um, my experience in Germany, um, I never assumed that people knew how to speak English. My, and my German is really bad, like terrible.

[00:29:48] Steve Douglas: But if you try and you say please and thank you, and you try. Communicating people, you know, in Germany, it was, Oh, God love his [00:30:00] American little heart. Let me help you out. Okay. Thank you very much. But if, if people would, would take that attitude of, I don’t understand. And please help me. And thank you for

[00:30:16] Taty Fittipaldi: making a genuine effort, right? You’re really trying hard to interact and to understand and to be open minded.

[00:30:25] Steve Douglas: Yes. And you will learn because when you show yourself to be friendly. People will reciprocate. I, I have yet to find myself in a situation where I was not able to effectively communicate. And, um, and in, in some challenging places, after I retired, I went to Israel for a trip and I was wearing my combat boots well over in Israel.

[00:30:56] Steve Douglas: The Israeli defense forces are there on patrol and you can [00:31:00] tell the difference being a soldier. I. Could identify when they’re on patrol, they’re Their weapons are loaded. And so I was, we were, I was getting out of the dead sea and I had just taken a shower, I was getting dressed and I was putting my combat boots on and I, I knew they had were eyeballing me.

[00:31:21] Steve Douglas: They could see my combat boots and I thought, Oh, they are going to come up and they are going to, they’re going to want to know is, is that. What’s going on here? Is this guy,

[00:31:32] Taty Fittipaldi: so,

[00:31:37] Steve Douglas: so I, I, I stood up and it was a very non threatening gesture, had both my hands exposed and I introduced myself. I said, um, sir, first class retired, Steve Douglas, United States army.

[00:31:51] Steve Douglas: They saluted, they went their way. I went my way and that was. It was a wonderful exchange. Well, I, I knew [00:32:00] that, that they were, they were doing their job well. The same thing can apply for people when they go to a country know that it’s there. People are going to look at you differently because you don’t fit in.

[00:32:15] Steve Douglas: So, you know, once again, if you if you have that cultural appreciation and learn a little bit about the history of the country. Before you go, that’s that. I think that is paramount and you don’t have to go into a lot of in depth history, but, um, like Brazil. I want to go there someday. I really do. Um, if you understand how that it started off as a monarchy and it, you know, it transitioned very quickly because.

[00:32:49] Steve Douglas: You know, the, the people from Portugal were, you know, the, the king and the queen, they were, they were pretty much being run out of the country. So they moved to Brazil very [00:33:00] quickly. Well, there people are going to establish a form of government that they’re familiar with. Well, it’s just that that’s continued.

[00:33:07] Steve Douglas: So it’s understandable why there’s a, a very. It’s very, you know, very, um, hierarchical and why there’s a lot of structure to the, to the way things are done. That makes perfect sense to me. Now, I don’t have to know all of the details, but I do know that if I, if I go to Brazil and I want to, you know, I’m working for a company and I want to have a particular, you know, project.

[00:33:40] Steve Douglas: Well, I’m going to have to say, okay, so how, what do we need to do to make sure that we meet all of the criteria? I’ll meet all the local laws, but we’re also able to accomplish what we need to get done. And that comes from that cultural appreciation. Very, very important.

[00:33:59] Taty Fittipaldi: [00:34:00] Absolutely. And Steve, I am curious to know, you started to talk a little bit about that in the beginning of the show. And I wanted to go back to that topic. So how can companies help the expatriates do their jobs in the foreign countries where they were assigned to?

[00:34:18] Steve Douglas: You betcha. Well, the first thing is companies, if, if they start to, if the, if the expat or the soon to be expat can start handing off their day to day responsibilities and then focus on the transition piece.

[00:34:37] Steve Douglas: Moving from, uh, you know, not finishing up a project five minutes before the, the jet door closes on their way to relocate down there. So let the, let the, the, the job of the soon to be expat, let that be the transition down there. Um,

[00:34:57] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, that’s a good point. Yeah. that’s [00:35:00] very important.

[00:35:00] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s very important and and not many companies do that. And it’s very challenging to the expatriate. They become really overwhelmed. That’s so many things going on. They have to learn a new things, how to do a bunch of paperwork when they arrive. And yeah, absolutely. That’s such a good point.

[00:35:17] Steve Douglas: So, you know, that helping in that transition also, um, Intercultural training is important.

[00:35:27] Steve Douglas: Um, I, I really think that it should, and this is just my opinion, it should focus on, once again, cultural appreciation and not necessarily culture specific, you know, whatever country you’re going to, because The, you know, the expat in their, in their family, they’re going to learn that very, very quickly when they get down there, but to help them understand it’s going to be

[00:35:53] Taty Fittipaldi: different

[00:35:54] Steve Douglas: than what you’re, than what you’re used to.

[00:35:56] Steve Douglas: So pre departure training, um, [00:36:00] language, you know, starting to learn the language, please. And thank you. Um, how to get to the hospital. Where’s the grocery store, you know, conversations like that to help them in the process.

[00:36:12] Taty Fittipaldi: So support too, right? Like having this support, like in the military, because it’s really indeed very helpful when we get to a new country, we don’t know things, we don’t know…. we don’t even know…. And that can become even more difficult when you don’t know the language yet, or if you are going to a country where you don’t have the regular alphabet. So for example, you go to China or you go to Japan, you cannot not even read the label, right?

[00:36:41] Steve Douglas: Yes, quite so. And, and, you know, sometimes pictures can be misleading.

[00:36:46] Taty Fittipaldi: Yes.

[00:36:48] Steve Douglas: So, so, you know, you, you can’t always rely on that. So, and then that, that brings in another piece and that is. Um, have a, a cultural ambassador, you [00:37:00] know, so that the ex pat when they get down to the country, they are somebody that can, can fully appreciate that, yeah, this is, this is, this is going to be different for you and somebody that you can confide in and you can ask those questions of, it’s like, boy, that doesn’t seem that, that, that doesn’t make sense to me.

[00:37:23] Steve Douglas: Can you help me? make sense of why? This, this situation happens. Um, uh, the example that I’m, I’m thinking of, um, Jicinho Brasileiro, um, from, from Brazil, I did a little research on that and, you know, depending upon your perspective, that can be kind of an enigma it’s like, okay, so it can be a good thing, it can be a bad thing.

[00:37:51] Steve Douglas: It just happens to have a label. Well, the same thing happens in other, in other countries of, you know, finding ways [00:38:00] of navigating through the, the, the, the, the, um, hierarchy, yeah, the rules. So, uh, you know, to have someone that you can say, so help me understand this. Boy, it doesn’t, it doesn’t seem like it’s a one size fits all definition.

[00:38:20] Steve Douglas: So help me understand what’s going on here. So cultural ambassadors is, is, is just very, very important because you need to have

[00:38:29] Taty Fittipaldi: them.

[00:38:29] Steve Douglas: Because there are some times where, you know, um, expats or Regardless of the country they’re from when they’re in that new environment, they’re going to say something or do something that they don’t inadvertently they, you know, it’s it can be a source of embarrassment.

[00:38:49] Steve Douglas: So to help reduce that and then the associated anxiety. That goes along with that.

[00:38:55] Taty Fittipaldi: True, that’s very true. Yeah, and they become more and more anxious if, they [00:39:00] see things are different or they, people reacted differently. They don’t know what’s going on and they don’t have who to ask about that.

[00:39:07] Taty Fittipaldi: Right. That, that really becomes a source of anxiety. That’s, that’s true.

[00:39:12] Steve Douglas: Yes. And they’re, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re standing in front of a group of people and everybody’s looking and pointing at them. It’s like, I, you know, and if they, if they understood the language, it would be, Oh my gosh, I can’t believe he, he, or she just said that.

[00:39:26] Steve Douglas: It’s like, Ooh, yeah, that would be embarrassing. And, you know, you’ve got enough of a challenge as it is. Anyways, and I’m, you know, now I’m just specifically focusing on the job. You know, there’s also the dynamics of what happens when you get home and, and you have your, your, your family with you. There, there are some extra dynamics there.

[00:39:47] Steve Douglas: So a cultural ambassador can also help with that. And then the last piece is the reintegration piece, which I think is, is absolutely huge because here you [00:40:00] have, you know, an expat has, Has put their life on hold and, and they have had to put relationships on hold. And so now they’re reintegrating and there’s going to be a culture shock.

[00:40:14] Steve Douglas: There’s going to be a culture shock when you get to the new country. And there’s going to be a culture shock when you get back to your home country. Yes. So it’s, you know, that reintegration piece is very, very important. So, you know, making sure that there’s an assignment. For, you know, the, the expat when they come back, um, you know, knowing it and, and being secure in that.

[00:40:39] Steve Douglas: And also having a, you know, having a bit of grace and, and, you know, extend, you know, helping, you know, that expat when it’s like, yeah, I appreciate that it’s not the same as what you, you experienced when you were, you know, in. the other country. And so, you [00:41:00] know, helping them with, you know, that transition back into.

[00:41:04] Taty Fittipaldi: Does this happen also in the military when you are being repatriated to your country? That’s, that sort of, you know, transition phase that, or that….

[00:41:14] Steve Douglas: yes, yes, there is. Because usually when, when somebody is, when they’ve finished their, their overseas assignment, they come home and they have, Chances are they have a lot of leave built up, and so they’re going to use that leave time, and they’re going to come back and transition, but also something to consider, um, in the military, the culture, the org, you know, the military Culture stays with you and it’s, it’s pretty much the same whether you’re in the United States

[00:41:48] Taty Fittipaldi: oh I see

[00:41:49] Steve Douglas: or you’re outside of the United States.

[00:41:51] Steve Douglas: So there’s, you still have that frame, that wonderful framework that helps you in, in your transition, the real, the real challenge. And I can [00:42:00] speak to this, but, and that is when you retire and you get. You, you leave that culture. So, you know, that’s a challenge, but within the military itself, you always have that, and there are other people that can appreciate because, you know, you can say, yeah, Hey, I just, you know, I just PCS the permanent changes station.

[00:42:20] Steve Douglas: I just PCS from, um, Germany. Or I just PCS from, from Italy. And there’s going to be somebody in the unit that has gone through that transition and they’re going to go, Oh man, yeah, that’s kind of different. Isn’t it? And so you can, there are a lot more cultural ambassadors, if you will.

[00:42:39] Taty Fittipaldi: Oh, I see

[00:42:39] Steve Douglas: that you can, that you can deescalate with

[00:42:41] Taty Fittipaldi: It’s such a good cultural element to have an ambassador.

[00:42:44] Taty Fittipaldi: I I know you’re probably suggesting this as the way of the support for the expatriate based on your experience with the military, but I think it’s so brilliant. I think it’s, it can be even better than, than the training per se, [00:43:00] because, you help with that experiential learning.

[00:43:03] Steve Douglas: Yes, most definitely. And, you know, When you’re in the, when you’re, when you’re learning a language, it’s best to be immersed in the language. Um, a friend of mine from a long, long time ago when I was a young soldier was telling me he learned German by the, the, the, the German language program that the army puts you through so that you can have a functional understanding.

[00:43:30] Steve Douglas: But also he said. I watched nothing but German television, and listened to nothing but German radio, and I,

[00:43:38] Taty Fittipaldi: I spoke,

[00:43:41] Steve Douglas: oh yes, and that way you can pick up the, the, the subtleties and the nuances of the language,

[00:43:46] Taty Fittipaldi: and terms too, local terms, and, and idioms…

[00:43:49] Steve Douglas: yes, and, and that’s, that to me is, is very, very important, because when the expat comes back, Those experiences that they’ve [00:44:00] had are just tremendous.

[00:44:02] Steve Douglas: I mean, they, they really can, can benefit an organization because they’re, they’re going to benefit the expat because they’ve, they’ve, they’ve had that experience. And the wonderful thing is. They’ve done some stuff that people only dream of. It’s like,

[00:44:19] Taty Fittipaldi: yeah. So, yeah. And, and so you’re saying that people in the military talk with each other, right?

[00:44:24] Taty Fittipaldi: I think we could do this also in the corporations after the assignment is over. People could share their experiences just like we’re doing right now. They could do it in their companies too and, and help other people…. Although they were not there in the assignments, they will learn from that, right? With the conversation.

[00:44:44] Steve Douglas: Yes, as a matter of fact, um, when I was, when I was, um, I met one individual from, from the company that, um, I’m, I’m hoping to work in with my, my dissertation.

[00:44:58] Steve Douglas: And, uh, [00:45:00] I said, who else do you know that I can talk to? He says, Oh, he says the expat community in this company is very, very, you know, it’s, it’s very, very close. Everybody knows who’s been overseas and it’s like perfect. So I would encourage those that have been, you know, expats find somebody that they can, that they can share with, because when you try to share an experience with a family member that wasn’t there.

[00:45:29] Steve Douglas: It’s, you know, there’s no frame of reference for them and that, you know, the same thing happens in the military because it’s like, you know, we’ve had experiences that a lot of people can only dream about. Well, it’s like you have to explain the details of it. And it misses something in the translation, but if you can share that with somebody and say,

[00:45:51] Taty Fittipaldi: And the stories, right?

[00:45:53] Steve Douglas: Oh, yeah. It’s like, Oh, you know what? I had something very similar happened to me when I was, [00:46:00] and that’s, that’s how you can react.

[00:46:02] Taty Fittipaldi: People start to relate, right? They start to relate and connect the dots.

[00:46:06] Steve Douglas: Yes. Plus also that, you know, that expat experience, when it comes time for the next merger and acquisition, they are better adapt at At helping the company with that and, and for it to be successful, even if, if it was a, I was in Luxembourg, but now, uh, you know, we, we just, just merged with a company in Japan.

[00:46:36] Steve Douglas: Okay. Well, the language is definitely going to be different. However, the experiences of being an expat and being in a different culture, you don’t have that awkwardness. I mean, it’s, you’re going into a strange land. Literally. Well, in the military, that’s, you know, they, they help us in that particular area where you go into it.

[00:46:58] Steve Douglas: You’re, you’re in a strange [00:47:00] place when you go through basic training anyways. So you get used to that. So you can look at it and go, yeah, I’m in a strange place, but I acknowledge that it’s strange. It’s different, but I’ve got a job to do. And so that same thing can happen on that next expat assignment where it’s like, you know, I’ve been in a, in a different culture before and that part isn’t, you know, that, that, that, that’s not freaking me out.

[00:47:25] Steve Douglas: So, you know, I can, let’s, let’s do what we have to do and enjoy the, you know, enjoy the new dynamics of the new culture that you’re experiencing.

[00:47:36] Taty Fittipaldi: That’s, that’s brilliant. That’s, that’s, yeah…. and my last question to you, Steve is Basically, to summarize our talk today, what do you think could be some elements of organizational culture that a company has to have to be successful when assigning expatriates abroad to manage new teams, to [00:48:00] manage new regions, etc.

[00:48:02] Steve Douglas: You betcha. Have a very, very clear understanding of organizational culture. What it is the organization wants to accomplish with their, with their, their new team. And, and that, that needs to start off first and foremost, there also needs to be that, um, inclusion of that, of the new team, and that’s where the expat manager can come in and help.

[00:48:29] Steve Douglas: They, you know, they’re bringing in the understanding of, well, here’s how we do things back at the, at the head office. That’s wonderful. Okay. They also need to, that expat manager needs to fully appreciate that. No, you can’t do it the same way. Because we have that clear mission of, you know, the clear understanding of here’s what our expected outcomes are, then the the expat manager can, you know, has the latitude should have the latitude to be able to say, Okay, [00:49:00] we want to get this accomplished.

[00:49:02] Steve Douglas: This is how we have to do it here in this country.

[00:49:05] Taty Fittipaldi: Let’s try it this way here. Yeah. Yes.

[00:49:08] Steve Douglas: And then the, you know, the expat manager has to have the trust Of the, of the, of the headquarters. That’s just absolutely essential knowing that, um, it’s not going to be as simple as you like to think it’s going to be having, you know, managing diverse teams, isn’t anything new if you look at.

[00:49:34] Steve Douglas: You know, throughout history, there’s like the Dutch East India Company setting aside any, any, any thoughts of, you know, how good or bad, if you just look at it from that perspective, the Dutch East India Company, the same way with the, you know, the British East India Company. Anytime you have a Dutch a dispersed workforce.

[00:49:56] Steve Douglas: There has to be a level of trust and there has to be an [00:50:00] understanding of it’s not going to be how you think it is at, at that location. There needs to be a certain amount of latitude and adjustment and that comes from having an expat manager that understands how the culture operates and then is given the, the latitude and the grace to be able to do their job.

[00:50:25] Steve Douglas: Well, you know, based upon the spirit of the organizational culture, but based upon the reality of the host nation,

[00:50:33] Taty Fittipaldi: where they are. And in that sense, it sounds almost like you were saying, in other words, well, if you know the headquarter usually has that culture of micromanaging, then that’s not gonna, that’s not gonna cut it.

[00:50:48] Taty Fittipaldi: Right.

[00:50:49] Steve Douglas: That’s right. Yes. It’s, it’s going to have to be less hands on managerial experiences. Yes. Because, you know, there are, even though, [00:51:00] you know, You can communicate over, you know, great distances at different time zones. Once again, it is, you know, if I were the, if I were the manager at the headquarters, as soon as I were to hang up from that phone call, I’m going to go home to my house and I’m going to read, you know, U S road signs.

[00:51:22] Steve Douglas: I’m going to, you know, going into my us built house. With all my, you know, all of the, the, the, all of the, the stuff that I have.

[00:51:34] Taty Fittipaldi: You are in the comfort zone, right? You are still in the, you are in the comfort zone while the expat is not, right?

[00:51:39] Steve Douglas: The expat, the expat is going to drive down, you know, they’re going to drive down streets that, They know how to navigate, but it’s different than what they’ve experienced when they grew up.

[00:51:51] Steve Douglas: And they’re going to interact with people that English probably is not their first language. And so they’re going to have [00:52:00] to trans, you know, they’re going to have to translate what they say in English. They’re going to have to run that through their fill in the name of the country, you know, uh, you know, the Portuguese or, you know, and, and not just any Portuguese, you know, Brazilian Portuguese, or, oh, We’re back in and we’re in Portugal.

[00:52:16] Steve Douglas: So we’re going to speak that, you know, that dialect I’m in the United Kingdom. So I’m speaking United Kingdom, English or Scottish. So you have to run that through your filter. You know, before it comes out of your mouth and that’s going to, you know, that can just be absolutely exhausting. So that’s where, so, you know, when, when you, when you factor all of those things in, that’s where the grace and the latitude for the expat manager, that’s where that really comes in.

[00:52:47] Steve Douglas: Yes. Because they’re, they’ve, they’ve got a lot on their plate other than just trying to be productive. So,

[00:52:55] Taty Fittipaldi: absolutely. No, that’s, that’s brilliant. So I, I love everything [00:53:00] you shared with us today. Steve, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, sharing your knowledge, sharing the stories that you had. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you.

[00:53:14] Steve Douglas: Well, thank you for having me. I very much appreciate it.

[00:53:17]

[00:53:18] HIGHLIGHTS

[00:53:18] Taty Fittipaldi: This brings us to the end of this Leadership Nest episode. I trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your decisions and performance in critical global leadership roles and situations. Stay tuned for a next joy ride with expatriates interview! We promise to surprise you with new stories and concepts to help you learn more about international relocation, acclimation and cultural integrations.

[00:53:45] Taty Fittipaldi: Wherever you are in the globe, this is Taty Fittipaldi wishing you a beautiful day.

[00:53:51] Taty Fittipaldi: If you have any questions, you’d like us to answer in a future episode of this [00:54:00] show, just go to speakpipe.com/tatyfittipaldi or click the link in the show notes, to leave us a brief audio message.

[00:54:09] Taty Fittipaldi: Make sure to visit us on our website www.theleadershipnest.com, where you can subscribe to our show anywhere podcasts are streamed, so you never miss the fun.

[00:54:22] Taty Fittipaldi: While there, if you find value in our show, you can also subscribe to our global leadership weekly newsletter from Coaching Expatriates®, where we deliver bite-sized lessons on global leadership, decision-making, and cultural competence to help you learn how to think, relate and strategize in a whole different way as a global leader.

[00:54:44] Taty Fittipaldi: If you liked our show, you might want to check our online global executive leadership program. A nine week leadership development and learning system, that will help you lead internationally while making financially conscious and impactful business decisions.

[00:54:59] Taty Fittipaldi: [00:55:00] Taty Fittipaldi is also available for private coaching. See the websites for more details at www.coachingexpatriates.com/executive-coaching.

[00:55:12] Taty Fittipaldi: Thanks for joining us this week on The Leadership Nest podcast. I trust you found value in acquiring insights that can elevate your performance in critical global leadership roles and situations.

[00:55:24]